Is it possible to beat Kangaxx without metaknowledge?

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Without metaknowledge, would you prepare those nessecary stuffs like +4 weapons, some certain cheasy scrolls and a few Spell Immunities before giving back the remains to Kangaxx?

I think some players may be aware that from the words the liches guarding the remains of Kangaxx and the fact that Kangaxx is a "golden Lich" they may think that Kangaxx would not be something very difficult to deal with...but, would they know (without save & load, walkthroughs, etc.) that Kangaxx is SO powerful that he could slay everyone in a few seconds?

You may think that the remaining heroes (after a few one already imprisoned) will escape and get some Freedom scrolls and +4 weapons and some nessecary spells and rest and fight again...but meanwhile, Kangaxx may already destroyed the whole city!

So, what's your opinion? I'd especially like to hear what the hardcore players say.

 

A party confronting Kangaxx is likely to be high level since it after all requires killing at least two other liches. This means that it's likely that they have a +4 or better weapon.

Kangaxx is so difficult for three reasons: His Imprisonment ability, his immunities and his extremely high damage resistance.

Consider what would happen in a pnp AD&D session. After one or two party memeber get imprisoned the remaining members would do best to - as you yourself point out - run away to fight another day. Of course in a pnp campaign this would mean Kangaxx is free to wreak havoc on the city, but in the game that doesn't happen. Anyway, the rest of the party would discuss the fight and ought to come to the conclusion that they need serious damage output as well as some kind of protection vs the Imprisonment. Also they need to rescue the imprisoned party members.

In the game it would be natural to get the Prot f Magic scrolls and buff your best fighter(s).

In conclusion, yes I think it's possible to defeat Kangaxx without meta-knowledge. But you must not lose your head! The worst problem is if the party didn't have a +4 or better weapon in the fight which means they might think Kangaxx is invulnerable.

They can still come back with a Freedom scroll and get out of there before Kangaxx imprisons one of them again. Thus leaving the conclusion of the encounter until they have gained more levels and equipment.

 

Before reading Earl Grey's reply, I thought it was impossible, but I can now see that it is theoretically possible.

It would take a VERY experienced and wise player however. For example: when I would be fighting Kangaxx for the first time and some characters would get imprisoned, I'd just think: damn, I'm losing, let's just continue trying to beat him and I'll reload in a minute.
I think that I'm not the only one thinking that way, so most players that are facing Kangaxx for the first time (in what is probably their first game), probably won't beat him without reloading.

So it might be possible, but I think it is VERY unlikely.

 

It is far more probable that this would occur in a PnP setting. Instead of reacting to graphics on a screen, you are reacting to the DM's words. Generally it takes longer to say something than it does to see something, so all in all, you have more time to "think through" the situation in a PnP session. Plus, in PnP, you don't get reloads. So it is completely reasonable that in PnP you'd get the heck out of dodge before everyone was imprisoned.

 

Well, after two character were imprisoned, you'd probably get wise that he's going to keep doing that, so you'd cast Spell Immunity: Abjuration. Then when another character is killed by Demilich Howl, you would cast Death Ward. Assuming you have +4 weapons, you could kill him, but not until almost your entire party is imprisoned or killed.

 

What if you didn't have those spells memorized?

Considering that many other spells of the same level are more universally useful, you may not be able to use those spells. If you have them memorized because of Kangaxx fight, then you used metaknowledge. The same goes for using DW against the demilich howl. Since he only uses that at the start of the fight, protecting against it is metaknowledge.

 

Well, without having metaknowledge for Kangaxx you'd have to play a lot of the game without it. You'd have to be prepared for anything, so that means having spells like Death Ward memorized.

 

I think it's fair to assume that a mage or cleric character would know what sort of things they would need to fight a lich with, since they spend all their time in devotion or study, this knowledge would almost definately have been learnt at some point.

The same could apply to a Paladin or another similar class just as well, it all depends on how you percieve the situation.

 

Let's imagine fighting Kangaxx without "metaknowledge". Let's say your PC is a fighter / mage with Staff Of The Magi. Minsc has Lilarcor, Jaheira has Blackblood +3 and Keldorn has Carsomyr. Imoen is there in the background. Kangaxx the skull gives his spiel and everybody gets stuck in.

Jaheira: "My weapon has no effect!"
Minsc: "No effect?"
Keldorn: disappears
Minsc: disappears
PC: "Hmm, that looks like Imprisonment. Let me look it up in my BG2 manual, er spellbook. Got it. It's an abjuration spell. OK, I'll cast Spell Immunity: Abjuration"
Kangaxx: "Ooeeooeeooee!"
Jaheira: dies
Imoen: dies
PC: "Oh no! That sounded like Wail Of The Banshee. Quick, Spell Immunity: Necromancy. Good job I had two Spell Immunities memorized, eh? Now, take that you rotter!"
PC: does 2 HP damage to Kangaxx.
PC: "Oh bugger!"

Now, let's imagine fighting him with metaknowledge. Same as before, but this time Keldorn has a scroll of magic protection in a quickslot. Kangaxx the skull gives his spiel. Everybody apart from Keldorn runs to the furthest corner. Keldorn casts protection from magic on self. Whacks Kangaxx until Kangaxx is no more.

Going slightly off-topic, does anybody remember Acerack, the original and best demi-lich from S1: The Tomb Of Horrors? He was one fearsome SOB, too, but could be hurt with Shatter (2nd level spell not implemented in BG2), Disintegrate and Holy Word as well as +4 weapons (and Sword Of Sharpness and Vorpal Sword).

[ November 05, 2003, 13:14: Message edited by: Chris Williams ]

 

Well, that might work for Death Ward, since a priest, depending on his/her level, can memorise up to 9 level 4 spells. But for Spell Immunity: Abjuration? There are over 20 level 5 mage spells, counting Spell Immunity as 1, but with the different schools, it brings it up to around 30. You can memorise up to 5, plus any equipment bonuses. I would think it highly unlikely that you just happen to have Spell Immunity: Abjuration memorised (unless, of course, you had a few mages in your party)

The problem is that you don't necessarily know that you are going to fight him. And I'm drawing a blank here - do you even know that he's a demi-lich before the fight starts?

 

Yes, it's possible.

Confession: I've never attempted to fight Kangaxx, until last night. The only type of "prior knowledge" I used was knowing the spot where he emerges once you open his cartouche (I found that out by saving and reloading once). I made sure my melee fighters (Me, Jaheira, Minsc) were surrounding the spot, all armed with their best weapons (this isn't really meta knowledge, because I would've done this anyway). As soon as he appears, I just did my standard Lich stuff: Fighters start slicing away, Imoen casts Spell Strike while Jan casts True Sight. Given, I waited until I was very high level to take him on, but still. Knowing that it's going to be a tough fight and waiting until later isn't metaknowledge as much as it is intuition. I don't know about you, but if I saw Kangaxx's pad, a floating skull spoke to me about retrieving golden bones and I fight 2 liches to get to that point, I would pretty well assume I was in for quite a fight, wouldn't you?

When he took his Demilich form, I just threw Minsc into rage, kept my fighters on him, and had both Imoen and Jan cast "lower resisitance" on him to bring down his damage resistance.

Not too shabby, and I've never read any Kangaxx strategies that I took note of. The answer: be of high level and have a decent spell repetoire memorized at all times (or a Sorcerer). That's it.

edit - spelling. Dammit.

edit again - ToB content removed. Dammit dammit.

[ November 05, 2003, 17:05: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

I think the Baldurdash fixpack that I recently applied removed Minsc's immunity to Imprisonment while berserk. I can only assume that this is the case because last time that I had Minsc go berserk on Kangaxx's bony behind, he got imprisoned. One reload and trip to the Adventurer's Mart later, I had Keldorn beat up on Kangaxx while protected from magic.

 

Edit - deleted rule violation.

@DR - nice job.

Edit:
@ dmc - damn, forgot about that spell immunity thing; but it's still one spell out of over 20. That, and my points on whether you know you were in for a fight (and whether it was going to be against a lich) were simply directed at the likelihood of having the appropriate spells memorised. I will concede, however, that it is not as unlikely as I originally thought.

[ November 05, 2003, 17:14: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

@ Splunge

Dude, nobody likes a hall monitor.

I should also mention that in my game, Minsc is a Barbarian and Imoen is a Sorcerer. So the only thing beyond normal I did was take advantange of was the best rage available, the Barbarian rage (woot! woot!). Imoen, though she cast it normally, could've just as easily cast Spellstrike from a scroll or a Similacrum or Project Image.

 

I too think that with certain background checks/spirit summoning etc etc. you could get the information you need about Kangaxx.
Considering this as PnP aspect it is.

and since all demi-liches have Imprisonment(correct me if wrong), a powerful AND experienced mage should have enough knowledge to seek a book about liches/demi-liches etc. Or as I said, call upon a spirit/demon etc. to spill all the information possible (though deception might be possible in the case: demons) and thus telling his fellow companions the danger they dwell in, and the evil they are about to meet.

With enough time spent on research and sort of a -training, it could work IMO.
as someone stated (can't fond the correct reply) no rookie adventurer group could survive the battle, or the nine hells have frozen.
It takes experience to take such a powerful foe as Lich, not to mention Demi-lich, so that should keep all the rookie's at bay.

Heed the warnings of the other two liches

:EDIT:
@dmc
Yep, you got the sphere thingy correct, atleast it worked on the Liches, haven't tried it on the D-L yet, though. But IIRC the scroll didn't allow any resistance/immunity or saving throws, so basically it atleast should disable Kangaxx's abi dalzim's etc. Not sure about the Trap of souls though, IIRC it was a "skill" ?

 

Also, for someone who is trying to play the game without dying and without prior knowledge (I wonder if anyone could do that) would take a scroll of Prot from Magic along just in case he got into a situation that he couldn't handle. Kangaxx is one of those situations.