Is this REALLY Rape?

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A 15-year old girl tried to get into a nightclub that was 18 or over with a fake ID. However, by the time she and her 15-year old friend arrived at the club, the club was at capacity, and were allowing no other people in.

So the two girls hung outside the club for a while, and were approached by two men, aged 20 and 22. They weren't able to get into the club either. The two girls ended up going out with the two men, and one of the girls had sex with both of the men later that night. Now both those men are being charged with statutory rape.

The actual manner of what happened is that one of the girls had sex with both of them seperately, then went and showered, and then had sex with both of them again. So she had sex four times in the span of about two hours.

This occurred at the apartment where one of the guys lived. According to the girl who didn't have sex, there was no alcohol involved. She said that the men asked her for sex too, but she refused and spent the night watching movies from one of the men's extensive DVD collection while the other girl was getting banged in the guy's bedroom. The other girl also said that her friend agreed to sex without the guys resorting to any type of repeated asking, coaxing, or anything like that. She accepted at the first offer for sex.

You'll need a little background on Maryland rape laws too:

1. The age of consent in Maryland is 16. Once you're 16 you can have sex with anyone you'd like.

2. You cannot consent to sex at any time prior to the age of 13. Statutory rape is a mandatory charge in all instances where one of the people involved is under 13.

3. From the age of 13-15, it's a gray area. If you are in this age group, you may consent to sex, but only if the other person involved is within 3 years of your age. The only reasoning behind this law is (I assume) that some teenagers will engage in sex, and they don't want to charge all teenagers doing so with statutory rape. The idea is they don't want older men to take advantage of young girls, but at the same time they don't want to make criminals out of teenagers acting irresponsibly.

So back to the case. Because the girl in question was 5 months away from her 16th birthday, she was also 5 months away from being legally allowed to consent to sex with someone more than 3 years older than her. As the men involved were 20 and 22, they were beyond the threshold. As far as the letter of the law is concerned, they broke it.

However, there are some extenuating circumstances here that I think should be considered. In no particular order my concerns are as follows: (I'd like to add the disclaimer that while I do not know if all of this is relevant, I certainly do think some of it could be relevant.)

I have no idea how the girls looked or dressed. Although, since they intended to get into an 18 or older nightclub, it is reasonable to assume that they dressed in such a way that it would look like they were at least 18. A fake ID won't do you any good if the bouncer can tell simply by looking at you that there's no way you could possibly be 18. In fact, he'll probably detain you for the police to charge you with using a fake ID.

There was no physical abuse at all, and the girl wasn't forcibly raped. In fact, she fully admits that she consented to sex. (That's why it's statutory rape, as consent is irrelevant in a case of statutory rape.)

While she may not have mislead the men about her age directly, she certainly did so indirectly. We must assume that if she was trying to get into an 18 or older nightclub, she was dressed in such a way to make it look like she was older than what she was. I think it was reasonable for the men involved to assume she was at least 18.

On the other hand, I cannot tell the motive of the men either. I do not know if the only reason they approached the two girls was because they both weren't allowed to get into the club, or if they approached them with the intent to have sex with them. Further still, I do not know the motive of the girls either. Did they go to the club with the intent on picking up older guys and having sex with them?

The reason this is being charged is because the girl who did not have sex told her parents what happened. Her parents called the other girls parents, and it is the other girl's parents that are bringing the charges.

Your thoughts? If you think they are guilty, what type of punishment would be just in this case?

[ April 22, 2005, 15:45: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

Rape. If you get on the playing field, you better know the rules. Don't want to get hit is a rape charge for having sex with a minor; don't have casual sex with a stranger. If you are going to have casual sex, be aware of the risks (statutory rape a minor one considering you can get a death sentence from HIV).

 

DW,

I agree in principle with your sentiments. As the letter of the law goes, these men broke the law. However, I do not think that these men should be locked up for 10 or 20 years because of this either. An extremely light sentence - possibly even probation - seems to be in order. That way, if they are scum bags and this happens again, the hammer will fall hard. On the other hand, if they just stupidly and unknowingly had sex with someone under 16, this will serve as a strong lesson. Furthermore with probation, if they stay on the straight and narrow, it will be stricken from their records after a period of a few years.

 

The girl was not raped in the traditional sense, but those 2 guys had taken advantage of her and I think they deserve what they get.

I am currently 24 years old and I think that someone under 20 is too young for me, never mind a 15 yearold...

Besides what sort of man wants to have sex with a girl that just finished having sex with his friend?

 

What type of girl would have sex with another man after just having sex with his friend?

 

Legally, yeah. Probably the judge would be lenient tho. Statuatory rape laws are somewhat of a social bandaid IMHO. I remember from high school how sexually mature alot of 15 year olds were, and the 16th birthday is just an arbitrary date for setting maturity. But I suppose something needs to be in place to keep people from preying on young adults. My suggestion, in addition to keeping stat rape laws, would be more sex education. Somehow it seems to me this girl (not to mention the guys) has a very warped sense of what sex is, and I would guess she did it out of a sense of rebellion and transgressing authority, kinda like kids who think it's cool to raid the liquor cabinet and get drunk to the point of vomiting and passing out while the parents are away. Somehow I think that if she had been taught to think of sex more maturely, it might not have seemed like such an "adult" thing to do. And as for the guys, I have little doubt that they manipulated the girl's immaturity to some extent; stat laws were designed to make guys like that think twice...

 

Well did the men know they were 15? Maybe the girls knowingly and willingly deceived them into believing they were 18. They had fake id's...

Statutory rape is foggy sometimes since in most cases you're guilty till proven innocent. If the girls or girl purposely deceived the men then they should be cleared of the charges.

This is why when I met my wife on the first date I asked for a drivers license, major credit card and or birth certificate. She laughed but when I explained that I was serious she actually understood the reasons why and was happy to oblige.

A friend almost got caught in something like this. He was at a bar and met a girl. He drove her home and they started making out. He wanted to go on, but thankfully she had a pang of concious and confessed that she was only 13 years old! He immediately told her to get out of the car and if he ever saw her in the bar again he's come back to her house and tell her parents.

Guys watch out and card girls. A silly question and 10 seconds can save you a lifetime of suffering and an underserved reputation.


To answer your question Aldeth; a girl with loose morals. Better question would be why a guy would want sloppy seconds, knowing she had just been with his friend the same night? Yech!!!

 

Istolil,

Your point is basically what I'm saying. Is it really right to charge a guy with rape because she's under 16 when the girl could "prove" that she was at least 18? I mean, if she had a fake ID that was good enough to get her into a nightclub, then chances are that ID would be enough to convince these guys. What they didn't state in the court case was A.) if the guys asked how old she was, or B.) whether she was asked or volunteered the information was she being truthful. I mean, if she told them she was 18 and had the ID to prove it, was there any reason for them to think otherwise?

 

It's scary being a man these days. 12 year old girls look 25! When I was 12 girls did not have boobs like they do today. It's got to be the BGH (bovine growth hormone) in the milk. Unfortunately the burden of proof will fall on the guys. Like I said, guilty until proven guiltier in most cases. In a case like this they don't care about what the guys say, it's a lynch mob mentality. I feel bad for them if they did not know. However if the were aware of their real age then they get what they deserve. It'll be interesting to see what comes out in the media.

 

You should be able to tell the age by how mature the girl is, not how pleaseing she is to your eyes.

 

It's not a rape, they didn't force the girl into anything. It's simply having sex with an underaged person. Against the law, yes, but that has nothing to do with rape.

And there was the fake-ID thing. If those men didn't know the girl was actually under 18, then how can they be responsible for anything?

Anyway, there're all sorts of funny twitches and figures with these things in the law, so I can't really say how it will work here, let alone there. A lot more would have to be known than was said here. My own personal opinion however is that if the guys asked for ID and objectively speaking there really was no way to see the age of those girls by looking at them alone, then they're not guilty of anything.

 

Sometimes you can't tell Cesard, that's the problem. Especially in a bar with loud music and if they've been drinking.

 

You can tell the difference between a girl who is 15 years 7 months old, and a girl who is 16 based on their maturity? Something magical happens in those 5 months that this girl was completely different from a 16 year old? Granted, I don't exactly support the notion of a 22 year old and a 20 year old having sex with a 16 year old either, but I'm just saying in the legal sense, if she was 16 it would have been completely legal.

 

This is one of the reasons I don't go to the mall without my wife. We play a game of trying to guess the ages of the girls in the mall. My strategy is to pick the age they look and subtract three. I'm guessing these girls looked old enough that they could pass for 18. As far as I'm concerned the guys did nothing wrong. The courts should have to prove that they knowingly had sex with underage girls. Of course that isn't what the statutory rape laws say, but I personally don't believe the statutory rape laws are appropriate.

 

It is really a lot easier than that. You just DON'T HAVE SEX with anyone that you don't know. It is a stupid immature behavior anyway.

 

Don;t have sex with anyone you don't know? WHat the hell? So, unless you marry someone within your close social circle, die a virgin? Thats way out too extreme. Istolil has the right idea. Ask for a drivers licence.

 

its like this, if the girls were dressed like eightteen year olds, acted like eightteen year olds and had id's that said they were eightteen. then the guys should be innocent of all charges and the girls charged with decieving with intent to break the law and entrapment.

oh, and for those of you who THINK you can tell a girls age by her maturity and or look's and sounds, call me, and i will be happy to prove you wrong. i have a cousin and when on the phone she sounds 22 or 23. in actuallity, she is only 9 years old.

[ April 25, 2005, 13:25: Message edited by: shadow2473 ]

 

Daie,

No, how about dating someone a few times before you **** them? If you meet their family, and interact with them for a while you are probably going to figure out that they are a minor, and even if you don't, it would be a mitigating factor for the judge to consider before he introduces you to your next lover...your cell mate.

 

Well I can bet on that I can recoginze her as a 9 year old if I saw her.

Personally I think that 16 years is far too much for the legimate age limit and I would reduce it to 14. Otherwise though I think the guys are guilty. The guys have no business asking ID's from the girls to show their age so the ID question is insignificant. If they would have had any doubt that the girls are below the legimate age they should not have slept with them, so I think are guilty as charged. However I think they should get away with probation and in Finland they most probably would get away with just probation in this case.

 

Personally, I would keep the age of consent equal with legal age (18 in most countries) and the problem of minors and grey areas would be cut back to some shape nicely. It's not like people who are 18 are automatically mature enough, anyway. You are ready for sex when you are ready for bringing up children.

But, about those guys, if the girls had shown them fake IDs and the fakes had been good, then they should be free of all charges. They trusted the state's legal document and those are meant to be trusted. The girls committed an offence against the credibility of official documents (aka forgery) and it's on them, not on the guys.

If the guys had simply been naive, having to report in the court and face charges is enough of a contact with justice.

If they had had reasonable grounds to suppose the girls had been younger than that, then they should answer for statutory rape normally.

However, if we establish that 1) if the girls had not in fact been as adult as their fake IDs were telling is not relevant, then, to be fair, we must also state that 2) the fact that the girls had fake IDs should only matter if the guys had seen those. Judging by the looks and assertions alone should only work for them if the girls really had looked much more than 16.

However again, someone who takes the effort to obtain a fake ID can be reasonably expected to take the effort to make himself or herself look the age the fake shows or at least look older. It's possible that the guys had been willingly deceived by the girls and the possibility needs to be taken into account.

Eeek, yeah. Wonder if the guys really didn't know or if they didn't mind either way.

Couldn't agree more.

Sex drive is not the same as hunger or thirst. You can live without a daily shag. Laws don't exist for their own sake but they are meant to protect inviduals or the whole society from harm. If someone wants sex so badly that he doesn't care about the harm potentially done, then he deserves the consequences.

Probation seems about right for the guys if they hadn't been shown good fakes supported by some good acting. One screw up will teach them without putting them in jail, but another one will mean they don't care and will get them behind the bars accordingly.

And by good acting I mean something really convincing. It's true that a couple of months difference can't make anyone radically more mature, so someone a couple of months away from 16 is not the same as a 13 year old. However, a sensible person can be expected to know the age of consent and to realise that looks can be misleading, especially if the difference seems small. A couple of months difference from the age of consent doesn't look like a good reason to put someone in jail on one hand, but it doesn't make a good excuse to break the law on the other hand. It's reasonable to assume that every young adult looks at least two years give or take from the real age. The girls would have to have looked 20 or more for it to work. If they had only looked 16 or 17, the guys should have been more careful. Doesn't mean they should go to prison for mistreating a minor, but they should face some consequences.

My intuition suggests that the girl was whored herself out and the guys didn't really care about her age or anything, at best assuming she was the age she looked. Surely wrong, but not rape.