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Israel, and how no one mentions it

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Taluntain, Oct 5, 2004.

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  1. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] It was pretty hard to miss if you were paying attention - both Bush and Kerry more or less literally said that they would do "what is important for Israel" at one point during the debate. I was actually pretty shocked at the time, but forgot about it later as no one else brought it up. But this is the key here - why the hell didn't anyone bring this up? Is subservience to Israel so deeply rooted in the US that anyone hoping to become president must actually spell out that they will look after Israel (even if only in a passing remark)? I found this quite stunning actually. It's pretty obvious to anyone that the US is on Israel's side in their conflict with Palestine, but I always thought that the US support of Israel was not actually something any candidate would discuss openly or spell out. Or am I missing something here?
     
    Taluntain, Oct 5, 2004
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  2. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Two Israeli government spies were recently caught inflitrating New Zealand (go the NZ security service!) with faked passports. One of them was imitating someone with cerebral palsy. I had previously thought that Israel was 'on our side' but I now have less sympathy for them.
     
    Harbourboy, Oct 5, 2004
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  3. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Tal - it's pretty simple. There are a lot of Jews in south Florida (where the debate was). If the octogenerian Jews of Miama and Palm Beach could have figured out how to use that there new-fangled voting machine, we'd be talking about how President Gore was doing in the debate.

    Plus, Florida is once again going to be a large swing state (it might decide this election too). Thus, neither Bush nor Kerry wants to look bad on the Israel issue. Most Jews in the U.S. are pro-Israel, no matter what their politics are.

    I know plenty of Jews who generally wouldn't consider voting Republican even if the Democrats put up a squid to run, but, if there was a hint that the Democrats were going to recognize Palestine as a sovereign nation and intercede on its behalf with Israel, they would be putting Bush stickers all over their car.

    HB - All major nations spy on all others. I'm sure the US has spies in New Zealand as well. It's just politics. "We trust you . . . but we like to be sure."
     
    dmc, Oct 5, 2004
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  4. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    It is also a fact that Israel owns a substantial amount of US assets, in addition to American Jews having an inordinate influence on the monetary affairs of the US, as well as a political stranglehold in certain cities (Miami being the primary, as mentioned). It's pretty well surmised that to diss Israel openly is political death to any campaign. The whole situation sucks.
     
    Spellbound, Oct 5, 2004
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  5. chevalier

    chevalier Knight of Everfull Chalice ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

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    Kerry won't vote the Catholic way while claiming to be Catholic. That would be bad because the Catholic Pope happens to be the head of some minuscule state, so it wouldn't be bad to listen. But no such worries with Israel, when there's no question of religion or morality, just politics. Yeah.

    When you don't know what it's about, it's about money. Is Kerry on the Palestinian side as well in some way?
     
    chevalier, Oct 5, 2004
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    @DMC What's there to be sure about? We're a country of bloody farmers in the middle of the South Pacific. The closest nation to us that isn't allied with America is Antartica, and that's full of snow and penguins. We have a no nuclear policy and our army would be lucky to break 10,000 troops.

    New Zealand doesn't like Israel at the moment. All we damn well want is an apology!
     
    Abomination, Oct 5, 2004
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  7. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Kerry Statement on the 56th Anniversary of Israel’s Independence

    A lot of Americans share this same feeling. Israel may not be perfect in its treatment of the Palestinians, but they live amid much uncertainty, much of which is NOT self-inflicted. It reminds me of that expression: "Just becuase you are paranoid does not mean that someone is not out to get you."
    It is a democratic state amid a region full of despotics, who would like nothing better than to drive them back into the sea.

    IMO, it is not because of displaced Palestinians, but because hatred towards Israel helps prop-up their own autocratic regimes. I seldom agree with the right-wing radicals in Israel, but there is a sizable peace movement of people there who would like to live in peace with their neighbors.

    [ October 05, 2004, 06:59: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
    Chandos the Red, Oct 5, 2004
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  8. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    These guys weren't just spying. They had forged passports which stole the identify of existing New Zealanders (i.e. those impacted had to get their passports re-issued). If "friendly" countries want to spy on us they can just waltz on in using their own passports and wander around to their hearts content.
     
    Harbourboy, Oct 5, 2004
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  9. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Abomination - We freakin' spy on Canada for Pete's sake. What are they going to do, launch Splunge at us?!

    I think Sharon's ultimate goal of pulling out of Gaza has a lot going for it. At that point, the Palestinians will have their own country and can sink or swim on their own, without Israel to blame. Assuming he survives that long and so does his coalition government, it will be very, very interesting. (Note that he's in more danger from right wing zealots in his own country than from random or not so random Palestinian attacks.)

    Tal - maybe you don't know how important Israel is here. There are a sizeable number of Americans who emigrated there over the years and who have family here. I know it's the fashion in Europe to basically blame Israel for many of the problems in the Middle East. You all are entitled to your opinion. Here, we see it a little differently. Israel is the only functioning democracy in the Middle East. It is on the leading edge of research and technology and is our local partner. The loyalty between Israel and the U.S. is far more precious to both sides than any of the various ties that I've seen among European nations. The amazing thing is how strong the commitment is on both the left and right. (In fact, Saddam would have had WMD's if the Israelis hadn't taken out his nuke plant.)

    Also, the American psyche is generally tilted towards rooting for the underdog. Given Israel's recent creation and the number of attacks it had to suffer from its "neighbors" (which resulted in its acquisition of the territory it now is willing to give back -- when was the last time any other nation offered back land that it had acquired as a result of winning a war?), we tend to root for it. We also like professionals, and the Israelis display a level of professionalism in both its military and industry that is worth noting. Plus, they act the most like Americans in the Middle East and they have great coffee. :)

    The shocking thing would be for any candidate to not speak out in favor of Israel.
     
    dmc, Oct 5, 2004
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  10. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Well, they MUST be OK then! :p
     
    Harbourboy, Oct 5, 2004
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    Well, duh, HB. Americans are the standard at which all other humans are measured :p

    IIRC you're worth 0.3 Americans :D
     
    Abomination, Oct 5, 2004
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    dmc wrote -

    I'm an Israeli, and couldn't have summed it up better especially as I'm not very articulate in English. I guess this is the reason most Americans support Israel, and therefor most American political candidates express support for Israel too, even if they couldn't care less (just look at former U.S. presidents - Reagen comes to mind). You can say what you want pre-elections, but what you do when voted can be a whole different story.

    I also think if you follow Kerry and Bush, at some point they'll be address a Muslim crowd/lobby of some sorts. I think you'll hear quite different things from them there - not bashing Israel but much more (justified) criticism regarding our conflict with the Palestinians. I guess it's just the way things are.

    Harbourboy,Abomination - While serving in the IDF like most Israelis, I learned some weird things. You can never know what useful information can come out of the most innocent ,friendly and peace loving nation, information that can be quite crucial to a country like mine. Spying around the world will always be, even between the US and Israel. Anyway, news reports here said the two spies captured was just a cover up for the "real" spying activity in NZ, since their actions were so amateurish. As for harming New-Zealanders, this seems truly un-necessary and stupid. For what it's worth to you, sorry!
     
    notforyou, Oct 5, 2004
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  13. Khazraj Gems: 20/31
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    What's to mention? Israel = good. Everyone/thing else in the Middle East = bad.
     
    Khazraj, Oct 5, 2004
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  14. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I knew the Aussies would get it.
     
    The Great Snook, Oct 5, 2004
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    As well they should - lest they be labled anti-something. Can happen to those who recognize the complexity of the Middle East.
     
    Dendri, Oct 5, 2004
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    Well said, Chandos. You pretty much summed up what I was going to answer. The only other thing I'd add is that the U.S. played a pivotal role in creating the modern nation of Israel and therefore is honour-bound to continue to provide moral support.

    Now, now. Rumours of the demise of the Canadian military are greatly exaggerated. Don't make us send our three armoured canoes and the combat moose down there to sort you out. And we have infiltrated the U.S. media with spies of our own - you don't think William Shatner is really an actor do you?
     
    Sprite, Oct 5, 2004
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  17. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    notforyou - thanks! It is worth something to us. So is your open sharing of your real spying activities. Gotta go now and tell the Prime Minister....... :wave:
     
    Harbourboy, Oct 5, 2004
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  18. The Great Snook Gems: 31/31
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    I always suspected that the moose had combat training.
     
    The Great Snook, Oct 5, 2004
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  19. notforyou Gems: 5/31
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    Harbourboy - You welcome, although if I know this ,anyone who should in NZ does too. Anyway, most agents probably just go to NZ to be in one of the most beautiful places in our world *shameless guilt-driven flattery ends here* :o
     
    notforyou, Oct 5, 2004
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  20. Register Gems: 29/31
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    Apology from Ariel Sharon? Yeah, right. No way in hell that it will happen. I agree on that you deserve one though.
     
    Register, Oct 5, 2004
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