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Lakers Summer of 2012

Discussion in 'Colosseum' started by dmc, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    So, in response to an Aldeth series of questions, I'm opening this thread.

    It seems that some teams just manage to do stuff to get better, and I happen to be a fan of one of them.

    Flashback to the CP3 trade that suddenly wasn't. The Lakers then dump Lamar Odom for nothing and go into a shortened season with multiple back to back games with an aged roster and no bench to speak of. No surprise when they get blown out by the young studs of OKC in the second round. Lakers fans are in as much of a panic as you can be living in a place where the weather is almost always wonderful and sports are important, but not psychotically so (like, say, in Philly or Boston).

    So, what happens? The Lakers manage to address almost all of their major deficiencies this summer. Amazing. Makes me giddy. Makes me as giddy as it makes Bill Simmons nauseous. I always know how happy I need to be in Lakers-related issues by checking in on Grantland to see how much Bill is dying.

    They first pick up Nash. Bingo - instant geometric expansion of the value of this trade. Not only do they get a real point guard who, you know, can actually dribble and pass and likes to get assists. They also get an instant can of anti-Kobe hog. Now, Nash has the ball and he shoots 50/40/90. So now Kobe isn't looking at double and triple teams with the clock winding down. He's getting open looks. He's happier. There's someone else to take last minute shots and who is a legitimate threat. Oh, and remember that Pau's offense went AWOL the last two years. Well, there probably isn't a better pick and roll player than him. He now has a gift-wrapped point guard to get him the ball wherever he may like it.

    But wait, you say, Nash is old and never could play defense. How does this solve the Lakers' habitual problem of letting the other team's PG into the lane with a gift-wrapped invitation to make an easy layup? Allow Mr. Kupchak to address that one:

    Err, Bynum. You're good and all that, but you're a baby . . . and your knees are glass . . . and you only play defense when you feel appreciated on offense . . . and you have a serious attitude problem.* So, we're trading you. To Philly. Let's see how you like the fans that boo Santa Claus. And let's see how well you can play when you're the first option, not the third.

    Oh, and Orlando, we're not taking any of your crappy contracts. (Not entirely true, as I consider Duhon a crappy contract, but his salary is relatively miniscule, so I'm good with that.) Orlando gives up the league's best center for a craptastic group headed by Afflalo (who really is the only player in the bunch. We'll get to Orlando in a moment.

    So let's add Dwight Howard. He addresses our lack of defense at PG, and any other position for that matter. He doesn't need to be the scoring focus, which is a good thing because his offensive game is a bit, uh, limited. But Nash fixes that to a degree too, because he's also going to be a fun pick and roll partner with Nash. Seriously, Nash is going to average more assists on this team, at his current age of 72 (or whatever), then when he was in his prime. It's going to be sick. Dwight is going to be happy, because he's not the lightning rod on this team (that's still Kobe). My real hope is that Kobe kicks back and says something like "Man, my knees feel old. Let's let these other guys do the work. In a couple of years, I'll have more rings than MJ and my contract is up and I can play on a yearly basis at some low salary (nod, nod, wink, wink, Buss family, remember that ownership you gave Magic for nothing, well that works for me too) until I've had enough.

    Now, Mitch isn't done yet, because, y'know, the Lakers' bench was still the worst in any league in history (slight exaggeration, but only slight). So, let's get Antawn Jamison for the league minimum. He averaged as many points last year as our entire bench. Oh, and we need a shooter, so let's get Jody Meeks for a low price, he can spell Kobe. Oh, and we needed to resign that energy guy Jordan Hill for a low price. He was good. And we need a backup wing, so let's resign Ebanks.

    I mean, seriously, Kupchack just aced the freakin' summer! Simmons is throwing up in his mouth on a daily basis. I LOVE this. I even don't mind that Meta World Punch you in the face is our starting SF because even he will start hitting open threes when there's no one in the same area code. And if he flames out, we can start Ebanks for defense. I mean, seriously, we don't need a single point out of that position.

    I'm so happy about all of this that I can barely contain myself. And no one is going to be able to tell me that the trade confirmation on Dwight wasn't a big middle finger to David Stern for screwing the CP3 trade. How do Gilbert and Cuban like it now? Tell me, Dan and Mark -- how does my ass taste??!!

    As for Orlando, I can only imagine that they wanted to go the way of the Thunder and start over. On paper, the NJ deal looks better, but there are some expensive contracts and the players aren't that great. I would suspect that they are going to blow it up and rebuild through the draft and didn't want anyone's garbage. The only surprise I had was that they couldn't force someone to take on Hedo's hazardous waste contract.

    So, Aldeth, no, I haven't really given this any thought this Summer at all . . . or maybe I have. :)


    * As an aside on this, what kind of moron decides that he doesn't need to listen to Kareem Abdul Jabbar after about two years, on the theory that he's learned everything he needs? I mean REALLY! Kareem's just this guy, y'know, who is the NBA's all time scoring leader. Multiple MVP's. Multiple rings. Really smart. Plays the same position as you. Had a shot that was literally unstoppable. What does Bynum say? Nah, I'm good. Keep your Jabbar, thanks. Unreal.
     
  2. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Here was my initial series of questions: Now we know what Kobe can try to accomplish in his last few years in the league... win titles. And how does Orlando give up the best player in the deal and not get the second best player in the deal back in return? And as a third question, doesn't it appear that this deal is worse (from Orlando's perspective) than what they got offered a couple of months ago from New Jersey? And they can't even say that the better parts of the this deal are yet to come, in the three yet-to-be received future draft picks, because all of those picks are lottery protected.

    I agree with most of everything else the dmc said. They gave up virtually nothing to get Howard. They did lose Bynum, but Howard is a clear upgrade. Yes, they did take on Duhon's contract, but it's a small contract meaning it's not a bad contract. Bad contracts are the ones where you hugely over-pay a guy for what he produces. Duhon's is not a cap-killing contract. I just can't say I never saw this coming. It's not like the Lakers don't have a history of trading for great centers (or doing said trade with Orlando for that matter). The thing that does surprise me the most is why would Orlando take this deal now? Not only is it worse than other offers they have received, but there was no burning need to get this trade done right now, months before the season. Why not hold your cards for now, and see if someone comes up with a better offer once the season starts or you get closer to the trade deadline? I mean, you couldn't have done much worse than this, right?
     
  3. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Normally, I would have something to say to such a brazen stance. But, GOD DAMN DMC, you are RIGHT! I couldn't agree more. If the Lakers are semi-healthy for the next several years, they will have many more championship banners to hang. Nash/Kobe/Howard is devastating if healthy.
     
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  4. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    AFI - the only reason I can think of why Orlando did this now, is that they just hired a new, young, coach. The Howard circus had to have been extremely toxic for the fans, teams, players, management, etc. and they didn't want to start the season that way. I figure they have a plan to bottom out at about the same time Hedo's contract runs out. Maybe a year before because you know that Simmons is going to start using the term "Hedo's expiring contract" the very day next season ends and there might be value to that expiring contract.

    I looked over their roster, and it's clear that they are going to need to shed Harrington, Big Baby Davis, Jameer Nelson, Reddick and Hedo over the next two years. (By the way, that's a completely separate issue -- what in the hell were they thinking resigning Jameer Nelson to a contact??!! Undersized point guard with an injury history whose best days are behind him. Why, yes, we're rebuilding, but let's give that guy some extra money. WTF? Makes no sense.)

    I understand why they didn't want Bynum - he was in the last year of his deal and they weren't going to be able to resign him.

    The one thing to remember, I guess, is that there is a league minimum salary. I would suspect that they wanted to have a roster of relatively short term contracts that would get them to the minimum so that they could shed what they needed as they went along and added pieces. Right now, the only guy on their team that I think anyone would ever want is Afflalo, and he's not your star, he's your glue guy defensive leader willing to do all the dirty work who can also hit the shot.
     
  5. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    OK, that makes sense. If you get Bynum and he doesn't want to be in Orlando, than you've just traded away your Howard problem for the exact same problem with Bynum. Then again, there's no guarantee Bynum is going to sign with Philly either, and that was a chance they were willing to take.

    Although I have to wonder why someone would not want to be in Orlando. It's not the worst place in the world to live. I understand that the basketball meccas of the US are LA, Chicago, Boston, New York and now Brooklyn (in no particular order). All of them have a lot of basketball fans and all of them routinely sell out every single game. (OKC also sells out every game, but I don't think people are busting down the door to live in OKC, and they certainly don't have the history of those other cities.) I would place both Miami and Philly on a rung below those other cities.

    But when you look at the rest of the league, what's better than Orlando? No state income tax in Florida, beautiful weather, absolutely baller if you happen to have kids with Disney in your backyard. I would imagine that Orlando would be a better choice the 3/4 of the NBA cities out there. Other than the ones I listed in the paragraph above, what other place has more to offer than Orlando?

    Not to be too nirpicky, but I just read the Bill Simmons article, and the one thing I don't agree with is when he calls Bynum a top 20 player. Yes, the guy is still young, and so as far as a tradable asset is concerned, he certainly will draw a lot of interest. So he's a top 20 player in terms of long term value, and certainly when you add in that there aren't exactly a ton of good centers in the league right now, it raises his value that much more. But if we're strictly talking about who the best 20 players are in the league right now, I don't think I'm putting Bynum on that list, especially given his injury history (one full season AFAIK).

    Actually, let's see. Let's start with the no-brainers (again, I'm not factoring in age in this list): Kobe, Howard, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Westbrook, CP3, Rondo. I don't think anyone is going to argue with those eight. There shouldn't be much argument here when I'll also take Carmelo, Dirk, Griffin, Deron Williams, Bosh, Pierce and KG. We're now at 15 if you're keeping count. I need five more, and here is where you're going to get into some debate. For my money there are a list of quality big men you can get for a fraction of Bynum's asking price with almost identical (and in most cases superior) production. I'd rather have Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, David Lee, Al Jefferson, Rudy Gay, and Josh Smith (not big names, but tell me one thing Bynum does better than them). Arguments could be made for Gasol, Ellis, Brandon Jennings, and Joe Johnson. I'm don't think any of them bring quite enough that I'd put them ahead of Bynum, but I wouldn't shout too loudly if someone made an argument that they were better.

    Until and unless Bynum morphs into a true alpha dog in Philly, I'm not sold he's even a no doubt top 20 guy. I think a lot of the hype surrounding Bynum is because he was a Laker and his team gets ton of coverage. If he played in Memphis, would anyone notice? (And remember, I'm talking about the here and now. You'd never say you'd rather have Dirk than Bynum if you're building a team for the next several years, simply because Bynum is eight years younger.)
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    If all we're looking at is Bynum now, we also can't factor in salaries, so I'd have to kick out several people in your list. Out of Kevin Love, LaMarcus Aldridge, David Lee, Al Jefferson, Rudy Gay, Josh Smith, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Ellis, Jennings and Johnson, the only ones who are in the picture with Bynum are Love, Aldridge and the Gasols. You can't put the rest in the hopper with a straight face, sorry.

    Let me tell you what Bynum does better than that group that I just sneered at - stand 7 plus feet tall and weigh 285 plus pounds and have a good offensive game inside, reliably make free throws, and, presuming he's motivated by his offense, he plays good defense. That (and the injury thing) was my main problem with him -- he didn't show up on D some nights. Well, as the guy getting 20+ shots in Philly, he'll be showing up on D, don't doubt that.

    Assuming he stays healthy, I think he'll be everything that Philly wants.

    So, my top 20 - Kobe, Howard, LeBron, Wade, Durant, Westbrook, CP3, Rondo, Carmelo, Dirk, Rose, Deron Williams, Blake Griffin, Love, Aldridge, Paul Gasol, Marc Gasol, Bosh, Pierce, and Bynum.

    I omitted KG (too long in the tooth, sorry), Tony Parker (same), Tim Duncan (same), Ginobli (not sure that I shouldn't have included him), Ibaka (maybe next season, but still too raw), James Harden (really not sure about this) and Eric Gordon (really not sure about this either). I could see swapping some of those for the tail end of my list, but not ahead of Bynum. Note that the top 20 list has exactly 3 real centers in it, Howard, Marc Gasol and Bynum. I think Bynum is better than Marc Gasol. I also think that I could be convinced to remove Pierce because of his age and the fact that he's lost a step, Blake because he's too raw and has a really rudimentary offensive game when he's not dunking (and can't hit a free throw), and maybe one or another of the guards because of the glut of guards, but I'm not removing the tallest guy in the bunch when he can bring it on both ends (as long as we're not factoring in the fact that I think his knees are going Hiroshima some time in the next couple of seasons and we're going to have pictures of him and Greg Oden playing ball at the YMCA with 50 pound leg braces against sweaty short guys with hairy backs).


    (By the way, how the hell do you not include Derrick Rose in your top 20?)
     
  7. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Because I completely f*cking forgot. Indefensible. Although that now means we have 16 players on our lists in common.

    A couple of other notes - I absolutely think Love is a better player than Bynum. I don't even think it's that close. I just looked up the stats from lats year, and it turns out Love average more points, rebounds, and blocks per game. Aldridge and Jefferson also averaged more ppg than Bynum.

    Now, if Bynum goes to Philly and becomes an alpha dog, then he definitely moves into the no-doubt Top 20. My point is right now he's not a definitely Top 20 guy for me, whereas I don't see how anyone could rank Howard outside the top 10, possibly as high as 5.
     
  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    No disagreement on Howard at all. I just think that Bynum is the second best center in the league and a top 20 guy, so I guess I agree with Simmons. Aldridge and Jefferson are both more featured scorers on their teams, as Bynum will now be.

    Love's stats are great, but misleading, in that he doesn't have anyone else on his team to get those boards or blocks, whereas Bynum was sharing with Pau.
     
  9. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    DMC,

    Only time will tell, but no Big Man in the NBA that has injury problems becomes the alpha dog on any team. Bynum will wear down quick if they go down that path.

    Bynum's number will not greatly improve in South Philly. When you put two big men together that both rebound well, they don't take away from each other, they take away rebounds from the other team.
     
  10. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Blades - I think Philly doesn't have a choice but to feature Bynum on offense. First, he's going to be the most efficient scorer by far, simply because of where his shots are coming from. Second, going inside out will open up the shooters for 3's. If they go multiple times down the floor without him touching the ball, they are doing something seriously wrong.

    Next, if he's not going to get 20+ shots a game, who the heck is getting those shots? Jason Richardson? Nick Young? Jrue Holiday? Evan Turner? Spencer Hawes? I just don't see any of them getting more shots than Bynum. Plus, if they do and Philly isn't winning big time, there's going to be tremendous fallout and pressure because they traded their best all around guy in Iggy for Bynum. You HAVE to feature him.
     
  11. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Collins will attempt to feature him. That is the plan, they have already confirmed on Philly Sports Talk Radio. But, his inability to break a double team with the dribble or a pass will quickly show the Sixers he is not the 1st option. They will back to where they were before trading for him, shots taken by committee....
     
  12. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Wow, that's pessimistic, even for Philly. :)
     
  13. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    No, it's more like "realistic". They are a playoff either way and capapble of beating anyone in the East except for healthy Miami and Chicago teams in a playoff series as they are 8 deep when it comes to double digit scorers.
     
  14. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    That was my exact thinking as well. Plus, if you intend to keep Bynum after this year, you're going to have to pay him a LOT of money. One thing I've never contested is that Bynum is among the best centers in the league. Given the sparse talent at that position, he is going to command a max contract. It goes without saying that you typically don't give out max contracts to people you aren't featuring on your team.

    Now I assume Blades knows more about the 76ers than dmc and I combined, but it defies belief that you could justify a max contract on Bynum if you're not going to utilize him like a max contract guy. If what Blades suggests is true, and they don't use Bynum as a first option, then I suspect his first year in Philly will double as his last year in Philly.

    I was going to go with "typical", but I'm OK with "realistic". It's business as usual in Philly. It's a tough sports town. If Bynum doesn't know that already, it won't take him too long to find out.

    Is Bynum even the kind of guy you want in that scenario then? I agree with you that the best attribute of the 76ers is their depth. They don't rely on just one guy. It's a perfect example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. None of those guys are capable of carrying a team on their own, but a few of them are great candidates to be a second banana on a team. Like if LeBron had a few guys on that Philly team when he was in Cleveland, he would have won championships.

    But with Bynum, there was always a level of resentment that he wasn't "the guy", because no one else is "the guy" when you have Kobe. I don't know if Bynum needs to attempt over 20 shots a game to be effective, but if you want him to actually play defense, he's got to be at least a 20/10 guy in Philly.
     
  15. Blades of Vanatar

    Blades of Vanatar Vanatar will rise again Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    But the key for Bynum is.... can he be a 20/10 guy for a full season? He has not shown it consistantly and his body has not shown that it can withstand that workload. So it is not a given. If Colins' project works and he becomes a 20/10 everyday guy, it's a win for the Sixers. If not, they are right back to where they were pre-trade, a 4-8 seed. Saying that odds are it's not going to happen is not a pessimistic take on the situation given his history.
     
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