Legend of Grimrock II

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I just started the GOG version of this game. So far I am really enjoying it. I am about an hour in and heading towards my second area.

I may have screwed up some of my skills and I may be light on tank characters, but I'm going to see if it is salvageable without having to start over.

 

Would've picked it up at the GoG summer sales, too, but don't have a credit card at the moment, so it wasn't an option.

Really liked the first Legend of Grimrock, and I'm very curious how the second one will compare.

 

I've played it over the last couple of weeks, thought it was nice. It is slightly more open than the first one, with you mostly having some choice of where to go next. In the end I of course explored everything anyway, but it was still nice.

Puzzles are good. There seems to be less puzzles where you have no hint on how to proceed such as secrets you can only find using a guide. Now at least you get to see that "there is something over there, now how do I get it?".

Combat is still kinda dance-heavy in that you want to sidestep the enemies attack while getting in your own. However several monsters, especially in the beginning, have ai which partially counters this tactic, and some fights take place in corridors or when you are surrounded.

Still don't worry too much by your lack of tanks. As long as you have one character taking the alchemy skill for those delicious greater healing potions you'll be fine.

 

So far I am really enjoying the game. However...

1. Really annoying that they have areas/treasure that requires a gold key, but the game doesn't have enough gold keys in it to open everything that needs one. Well that is something the Snook will not stand for. Luckily, I found out how to use the console and whip up a couple of gold keys.

2. Same thing with locked chests. Don't show me a locked chest and then have the lockpicks be somewhere else which will take me an hour to find. "~" you are my friend.

3. This may be stupid and I may just be missing something, but is there a way to get the characters to swim? Whenever I jump in water I either have to find a ladder to climb back up on to land or drown. If this is the way it is supposed to work, this strikes me as a little stupid.

4. Turtles, anyone know if there is a way to kill them when you are underwater. I can understand not being able to cast a spell, but shouldn't my swords work? I hate to leave something hostile alive. I'm a scorched earth kind of adventurer.

5. Food- I know that real people eat, but I just don't believe RPG characters should have to eat or sleep. Who wants to fill up inventory with "turtle steaks" and "warg meat". I need to carry around that rock I found three dungeons ago in case I need it.

6. Notes and Scrolls- I may be wrong, but I don't believe that scrolls serve any purpose other than to show you what runes you need to hit in order to case a spell. I have a mage and an alchemist wandering around with an inventory full of recipes and spell formula for a reason I haven't figured out yet. Same thing with all of the notes from the Master of the Island. I am carrying them around, because when I meet up with him, he may want to read his diary before I bash his head in with a hammer. Is there a version of the tv show "Hoarders" for CRPG players?

7. Potions- I wish the characters had a belt (kind of like Diablo 2). It is a ***** in a life or death situation to have to open someones inventory to quaff a tasty beverage. More than once while I have been trying to save someone or restore some mana a different character is taking a beating.

 

You have never played Ultima 1-3 or Ultima Underworld, have you?

 

That would be affirmative. It also used to drive me crazy playing "Rogue" when my character would die of starvation.

 

Back in the old days any serious game (e.g. Ultima Underworld, Ultima 1-3) had food as a basic need for adventure. Nowadays it´s perhaps useful to rest up hitpoints (e.g. Lords of Xulima) but back then running out of food was lethal.

My most hated monster [TM] ever are the gremlins in the Ultima series. They might not be the brightest, nor the strongest, nor the most damagedealing monsters - but they stole food. And when you have travelled a while to a dungeon and deep in that dungeon you see your foodpile being diminished to the point that you just KNOW it won´t be enough to make it back to the nearest shop to replenish it before starving...

 

This was actually the case in the first Legend of Grimrock as well, though only in 2 cases, where you'd get 3 locked doors in a room and you'd have to chose one.

Food, in the first game it was there, but not a terribly important thing. You could just pick up something as you were going hungry, no real need to stockpile that stuff.

If it's like in the first game, then there is no need to keep them all in your inventory. I did make a screenshot of all of them and saved them somewhere in case I forget how to cast a certain spell. Or how to make a potion.

It's part of the gameplay to rummage around in your inventory while the world around you goes on. Kind of like in System Shock, but without much of the spookiness.

 

It says that the game was inspired by Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder (which was OBVIOUSLY influenced by Dungeon Master, it ripped off DM's play style and interface and put in AD&D for magic and setting) and Ultima.
All three used food in the games.

The food mechanic can be either really annoying or it can be done well. Dungeon Master did it fairly well, but Ultima made it annoying mostly due to the gremlins.

I'd like to play these games, but I'm short of cash at the moment so my budget is zero. I can't comment in this case, I just want to defend games with a food mechanic when food is used for purposes other than healing potions.

BTW, Dungeon Master is IMHO one of the greatest RPGs of all time, and is still worth playing today. The graphics were phenomenal in 1988 and I think that they are fair even by today's standards (it's hard to believe they are only EGA rather than VGA), even if the resolution is low. I've certainly seen some shareware and freeware games with worse graphics released in the 21st century, particularly browser flash games.
http://dmweb.free.fr/

 

I haven't played Dungeon Master, but if Legend of Grimrock is anything like it, it's a dungeon crawler, not really an RPG. At least to my mind.

 

What's the difference between a dungeon crawler and a CRPG?
I thought one was a subtype of another. Dungeon crawlers tend to have less story and more focus on combat and are more hack and slash, like Rogue, Moria, Omega, Diablo I, etc.
Most RPGs have dungeons.

Dungeon Master is pure dungeon crawler and almost all hack and slash or solving puzzles The story is told in the manual, which is semi-important to figuring out how to beat it. Funny thing is, the manual lies to you about your objective, but it is in a similar way to the game "The Immortal".

Hint: The final boss is a puzzle boss.

I could spoil it for you, but you get clues on the level "The Tomb of the Firestaff" if you read the scrolls.

 

I don't know the official definitions, but to me, a RPG should at least have some dialog or other way to characterise your characters. In Legend of Grimrock there is no characterisation aside from what you make up in your own mind. It's puzzles and combat.

To me, diablo isn't an RPG either, it's a hack & slash.

Well, it's all semantics, of course.

 

It sounds like Grimrock is indeed similar to Dungeon Master.
There is no dialog, what little story development beyond what was printed in the manual gets told by reading scrolls you pick up, which is probably no more than 1K of text (only a couple paragraphs).

The game story is that you are the disembodied spirit of the apprentice Theron. Your master has just performed an experiment that split him into avatars of Order and Chaos, and this is also causing a great imbalance in the world. The avatar of Order has tasked you with retrieving the Firestaff to try to put things right.
As you are also immaterial, you must go in and revive four champions to act on your behalf.
That is a summary of what is told in the manual over several pages, not in the actual game.

In the game, a half dozen scrolls with a few sentences each on a single level out of 15 give you your true objective.

That's it for story, the rest is just wandering this huge 14 level dungeon solving puzzles and fighting monsters while looking for the Firestaff.
The first multi-level puzzle appears on level 7 in that you can't do more than just breeze through it until after completing level 12.

Still, it was an awesome dungeon crawl where you really need to build up your characters along all four job paths. Unlike most games where you want to specialize, this one encourages you to make jacks of all trades.
Many people make the mistake of neglecting ninja levels. It makes sense at first glance, but your characters are weaker without those easy early ninja levels.

In any case, yes, Dungeon Master is pure dungeon crawl, no dialog, no interacting with NPCs beyond killing monsters. No characterization of the Champions (which is actually somewhat justified if you use the re-incarnate option instead of the resurrect option, which you REALLY, REALLY should do as it pays off immensely in exchange for a little pain getting started. Hint: Use daggers in melee or bare hands on the screamers and have your weakest members in front facing them, and stay away from the mummies while throwing stuff at them from a distance and you should gain some ninja levels to bolster your champions before facing the more dangerous stuff on the next level. All the while keep practicing your spells. You can use LO YA even without a flash until you get a priest level or two, and practice LO FUL until you get a wizard level, then work on LO DES VEN as it is easier than LO FUL IR)

Anyways, I loved that game as a child, it was my favorite, and I still think the game is fair even today compared to some flash games I've seen. The graphics and sound are substandard or even poor by today's standards, but not horrible like say the Gold Box games.

 

Level 9, the pain rat level. With the clue "When is rock not rock".
It too took me a month to figure that one out before I found it by accident when I hit the arrow key twice. Instead of them going "Uh! OOH!" and losing 1-2hp they just went into the wall.
A couple years later a friend whose Apple IIGS broke and his parents had already gotten him a new computer gave me all his Apple II stuff including the hint book for the game and I learned that there were a bunch of those walls I missed, some earlier in the game.

 

Time for an update.

I am 23 hours in to the game and really enjoying myself. I am about to go in to the Pyramid of Umas. So far I have been able to play without Mrs. Snook once yelling at me to get off the computer or stop playing that silly game. Personally, I think these should be in game achievements.

I am a power gamer who likes to kill everything, find everything, and do everything. I love a good game guide and I have found a couple that I like for this game.

The puzzles are the type that I like, I don't like them all to be obvious, or easy. There have been some that even when I know what to do, have been difficult. I like that.

Combat is a little awkward. You can either just stand there and pound away (the preferred Snook method) or you can dance like it is Mike Tyson's Punch-out.

So far my toughest boss fight has been the "rat king". He has a cannon that does a lot of damage and there are a lot of rats to assist him. I just couldn't beat him which led to having to use the backup plan which is "College Snook" (who is home for the summer)

TGS- CS get in here

CS- Why?

TGS- Because I'm screaming for my health.

CS- Fine I'm coming

TGS- I need you to help me beat this fight.

CS- I don't know how to play this game

TGS- No kidding, just do what I tell you. I am going to control the mouse which controls the attacking and the drinking of potions. I need you to use these keys and handle the movement.

CS- Got it, my job is to run to safety when needed and avoid the big guys cannonballs.

TGS- Correct. Here we go.

TGS- (Three F9s later). Yay! we did, OK you can go.

CS- Can I stay and keep playing?

TGS- No, you are no longer four years old and can sit on my lap while we play Might and Magic VI (One of our fondest memories together).

CS-

CS- What game is this?

TGS- Legend of Grimrock II. The file is on my desktop if you want it.

TGS- (two hours later)- Are you going out tonight?

CS- Nope, I'm staying in and playing that game. Bet I beat you to the finish.

TGS- Nice, pick on the old guy who has a full time job. No bet.

 

You're a lucky bastard Snook. Try as I might, neither of my kids is falling into gaming.

I am luring them into the genre with Pokemon cards. All of the kids at school play, so I still have hope....

 

With my son it started at an early age. I think he was four when he used to help me play Might and Magic 6. His job was to look for secret doors (they would glow when you were near them). I used to have run past the same area multiple times before he would realize it. He was also in charge of the A for attack and S for spell keys when we were in combat. He absolutely loved it. I think what also helped was the way the game worked. The four characters had faces that reacted to what was going on and he liked looking at the faces. Of course I named the characters after myself, his mom, him, and normally his grandfather, so he related to them. I also got him hooked on Diablo 2 before he was in Kindergarten. He didn't really know what he was doing, but when he showed it to one of his friends the memo saying "You aren't allowed to play Mr. Snook's games" went out to all of his friends from their mothers.

Actually I just realized I should also post another update as I got a lot of playing in on Sunday. I had a great time. Especially when I got to the barren desert. This level alone made the game worthwhile. I had a such a good time on it. This is not my video, but it really did a pretty good job of showing what you go up against. I don't think I have ever seen anything else like in all of the CRPGs I have played. Enjoy Apparantly, this new board will not let you post with time's embedded. Jump to the 15 minute mark to see the part I wanted to show you. Or watch the entire thing if you so choose.

 

I just finished the game. I had a grand olde time and I recommend it to people who are looking for a dungeon crawl. My only bit of advice is I would go heavy with the melee characters. I had one mage who was very useful, but I can't help feel that a battle mage with a couple of weapons would have been better than slinging spells the entire time. I felt like my alchemist was kind of useless. Yes, it was nice to make potions and powerups, but other than that I don't think he carried his weight. In regards to melee, I found the heavy weapon and a shield to not be anywhere as useful as two light weapons. The heavy weapons have too long of a recharge time whereas the light weapons get way more attacks. I also would not recommend a dex based melee character as most of the weapons I found were damage plus strength as opposed to damage plus dexterity. Your mileage may vary. Good luck.