"Lightweight" Swordmaster?

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By "lightweight" I consider agile/dexterious/skilled fencer relying on avoiding enemy blows rather than strong, canned tank with a warhammer taking everything "on chest".
(Of course, in RL any warrior with full plate mail would beat the crap out of a guy who runs around naked, but hey, it's Faerun, not Life )

I actually tried to do this before once. Human Swashbuckler dualed to Fighter at level 35. Long sword 5*, one weapon mastery, no shield. It turned out ok, but... as you can see from his level, I spent most of the game as 'crappy' Swashbuckler. And believe me, playing through whole BG1(Haven't I mentioned that it was full saga solo thing?), and killing every Gibberling group I see("XP Is Sacred!") with one attack per round was almost ubearable. Almost.
Looking back, the mistake I made was to stay withing 2ed rules. They clearly promote Tanks over Dancers. Actually, this is what 90% of (c)RPGs do. Fighter? Full Plate Mail, Shield, and lot of HP. Sad, really. That's why I love 3/3.5. But nevermind that. Using my godly Bhallspawn powers(Read: Shadowkeeper) I want to make it so this time I can feel like I'm playing as a swordsman from the beginning(This is from BG1). So far the only thing I can think of is to make Fighter/Thief and change Thief to Swashbuckler. And that's why I'm here - took me a while to get to the point eh? - If any of you BG Gods has any suggestions, custom kits, mods, etc. for me please post them. The general outline is:

- Whole saga solo* character, with Tutu; other mods doesn't matter all that much, I guess. I'll be sure to use Ease of Use, fixpacks, Tututweaks, Gaider's Bhaalpowers, and possibly Tactics(*gulp*), to name the major ones.
- Heaviest armor - studded leather. Weapon of choice - long sword. No shield, so One Weapon Mastery is obvious.
- No magic(Magic Items ain't magic .

* - I thought of getting my buddy to play with me via 'net(As he plays spellcasters mainly), but chances of this looks really dim. Additionally, if I won't be using Swashbuckler class, I'll take Imoen.

So what do you think?

 

Interesting! I like your idea, because I like the less-armoured more agile character! I agree though, 2nd Edittion Rules don't go much for these types of characters do they! :'(

But I like what you're creating, it sounds like it's going to be good. It's too bad they don't have something like a "ShadowDancer" class here isn't it ...

 

Seems to me what you're describing is already in the game - a Kensai.

 

NO! He means like an acbrobatic fighter. A kensai is just a light fighter. I can see how you can develop the idea how his character could be represented as a kensai, especially considering as how he focuses on pretty much 1 weapon! But I'm sure he's regarding his character to something else.

 

It is a kind of Kensai, but only by name(Which AFAIK transaltes as a "Sword Master"). Besides, Kensais, system-like, are purely focused n dishing out damage with minimal self-protection. No armor, one-time lousy bonus to AC. Kensai will get hit a lot, and that's what I'm trying to avoid... make my character have as low AC as possible.

 

A character that's shadowed would help! Like some AC bonuses from Hiding in Plain Sight or whatever would be nice! So, you're trying to add some more fighting elements to your swashbuckler then?

 

It sounds to me like he's wanting the agility of a Kensai or Swashbuckler or Blade Crossed with the pure tank power of a +4 Full Plate Mail Fighter without having to wear the armor. i'm not sure why but it seems like what is already in existance isn't good enough so he's trying to make it better.

Several here could say how to use Shadow Keeper to add say the Swashbuckler kit to a multi or dual class. i haven't ever used Shadow Keeper myself.

There is a reason why things like Swashbuckler and Blade get the somewhat elusive 3 dots in two weapon style. In fact between that. The Fact that there are STudded Leather Armors that aren't that hard to get if you know where they are at that almost match Plate Mails, combined with the eventual AC bonuses of a Swashblucker. The only thing that your missing is the ability to specialize the way a fighter does to totally outclass any pure fighter. Why don't you get say 5 or 6 levels of fighter to get you set up by putting a few dots into two weapon style and long swords as well as access to those higher proficiency slots and then switch to thief. Ask these guys how to shadowkeeper in the Swashbuckler kit and go from there?

Another option is to play a Blade and learn how and when to use Offensive and defensive spin while watching them closely. Not only do you get damned good AC while in defensive spin, or damned good offense in offensive spin but you can cast spells as well. Blades whole tactic is the dextrous fighter that fights more with misdirection and movement rather than brute strength. But they aren't something you jsut throw in a fight and largely ignore.

 

I'm actually not so sure about this statement - plate mail is very cumbersome and restrictive, so a good finesse fighter could (literally) run circles around a tin can-clad fighter. Full plate was traditionally employed en masse in open battle, where the strength of the unit could cover for the individual's lack of maneuverability. It's also worth remembering that no warrior in a full plate suit who gets knocked over is getting up again - the weight is just to extreme for one man to lift himself once he's hit the dirt.

I've done kendo (Japanese fencing, derived from Samurai martial training) and believe me: it takes a lot of practice to reproduce moves effectively in the armour. Helmets in particular are very claustrophobic (but I have a very large head, so that might just be my problem in particular), and really restrict your vision and hearing.

Of course, Samurai armour just isn't as bulky as full plate, so the one-on-one example is less clear, but the lightly armoured Mongols did a pretty damn good job on them, as did the Ninja. And I've not even discussed longbows...

All of which is good background as to why I like rangers & rogue types over tinhead pallys and fighters.

 

magpie has a good point. It's a matter of Defense over Agility when it comes to platemail. You are strongly defended with few weak points. A man in platemail was often in groups and They were generally quite physically well built. And I'm not talking the whole upper body built that you see today. I'm talking about over all conditioning. They needed it to wear that armor and still lift a sword and put what it takes into a swing.

A finesse fighter is much more of a fighter of advantages and weaknesses. LIghtness and ability to meet. Needing to avoid the blow but when they do get hit it's a lot more devestating. Many that fought in such conditions also trained specifically to penetrate the weaknesses of defenses. Such as limited vision. Obscuring Vision or even weak points in armor itself. Not even platemail is a total protection suit. It has it's little holes. they are just minimized.

many Actual Computer RPG games actually do have this somewhat programed in with a graduated scale of raising agility and thus protection from it. However pen and paper AD&D has a much more limited Dexterity and a much easier to get very close to the maximum value.

 

Well, I never practiced fencing, neither was I in any kind of armor, but I used to read a lot about the subject(ARMA site). European full plate weights less than 30KG, which isn't that much for a fit man, and the weight is spread all over the body - it was possible to run and even jump in it. As for armor itself, it was almost impossible to pierce with cutting weapons(Hence why warhammers were introduced); "weak spots" are protected by chainmail. The only problem with it is that you get hot really quickly as heat doesn't have any way to escape. It is of course not unbeatable, special long daggers were used to pierce the chainmail parts, and hammers were really nasty, but with fight one-on-one I dare to say that unarmored enemy didn't have any chance.
As for the longbows, well, that's true - longbows and crossbows could pierce the plate, but it's obvious that ranged weapons are better than melee.

 

I have to agree with Koki. Even in full plate mail, I knight would easily be able to stand back up if he was knocked down. Yes, full plate mail is heavy, but it was mainly attached to the shoulders and the hips, thus spreading the weight out over the entire body. If you could take a knight out of the entire fight simply by tripping him, they wouldn't have been the mainstain of the heavy cavalry units throughout some 300 years of Medieval Europe.

 

well, the mongols used horse back attacks and archery against the samurai to hurt them, when the samurai got onto their ships they slaughtered them - so 1 on 1 the better armoured opponent won.

 

The Samurai aren't the best choice. many of them were very highly trained in hand to hand combat over ranged combat to begin with. And many of them were better trained to begin with.

Mongol's also fight in a different environment. Yes they were horse back fighters but that was primarily what they were. That's why the Wall of China was built in the first place To keep them from being able to ride in on their horses and make horse back attacks. They weren't masters of man to man on the ground fighting so it wasn't just about the armor. Genghis Khan's Mongol's the bow's were very important. From the age of 10 or 12 they were all trained to be superb marksmen archers even on horse back to the man. He also specialized in tactics on the battlefield.

There are lots of ways to pierce plate depending on how it's made. There are also lots of things that pierce chainmail. A spear in the right spots was just as deadly as anything else. This is part of the cause of death of many a jouster. And while they could get up in platemail. It was not easy. Tripping them and knocking them down was even harder. As I said they were full body conditioned and for a long time your average platemail ranged in weight from somewhere just over 55lbs to greater than 75lbs. Compared to things carried today this was a hefty weight but those that wore platemail were largely vastly more well to do than your average soldier and had the build of a strong Tri-Athlete. We're talking full body conditioning to carry the loads. more than one battle was actually won by less prepared troops because of the weight of the individual and the armor would actually bog down in mud and muck the warrior in platemail to the point that it was a struggle for a man to move in such armor that was used to wearing it and trained to handle the weight in battle.

English Long Bows are a whole other story. While they were capable of penetrating armor for a very long time, Romans Excluded, your Archery people were not highly trained. they were conscripted as peasants that often had no more ability with a bow than what they used to hunt with. Nor were they allowed to win battles. Should the Archery be wholely turning a tide of battle they would be pulled back and the armored members of the Infantry would return to the field. The English Longbowmen were the only ones to get any real training and it still took a King for them to become decisive in war and that was seen as most irregular until he proved just how useful they are at helping to win battles.

hammers had been around for Ages as weapons. Since the day of my tools of my trade are my weapons type ages.. They found new life against platemail because a tactic against a platemailed warrior instead of killing him was actually to litterally pin them in their armor and ruin the platemail as well as dealing damage to them. Strong individuals able to wield Maces, Hammers, and the like with great force would actually turn the plate mail against the wearer and it wasn't wholely uncommon after such a confrontation that the individual in the platemail actually had to be cut out of his armor.

As for Heavy Calvery. The point is kind of to not be knocked off your horse. It's about the weight of the animal and yourself becoming part of the lethality. As well as the Mobility the horse provides. Alexander the Great put the Calvery to use many a time but he started out his war career as a Calvery officer. He came up with many of the Calvery tactics to be used for a long time after and they were used from the Roman's on along through the dark ages in Europe. He also put a great ammount of Value on his men's lives.

The Samurai's armor part of what puts flaws in it is that it's designed to be well Mobile for one trained regularly in wearing it yet still be much more protective than unarmored. Plate mail is designed primarily to be Protective while still being mobile and useable.

An important fact to remember though is a downed Knight in Platemail was in serious trouble if he didn't fight with the armor and get up quickly. He was a target so they trained for the conditions of wearing it and trained quite a bit in fighting in it. However a knocked down knight had the real threat of his helmet being ripped off or otherwise put out of place and taking one in the neck or in other vulnerable spots. But then it's not easy to knock down something a bit like a Gladiator or professional athlete in metal plating. Your going to take advantage if it happens.

Fencers are a whole different class of fighter. Their weapon was primarily their defence as well. They were unarmored agile fighters where it was a matter of skill against Skill and the more skilled fighter is the one that most often won. The padding and such that the sport fencers of today was developed to limit and help illiminate killing of your opponent in the simulated combat.

And I watch way to much educational television for my own good.

 

Aldeth is ride. Dismounted knights were used in special battlefield situations and in siege. The English used dismounted knights along with simple infantry soldiers to help archers defend against whatever made it.

 

If you dual your kensai over to thief he'll be able to use any armor a thief can use. And he'll still have the +2 to his AC. Have him stick to one weapon style and you have another +2. That means his base AC in unenchanted studded lealther would be 3 before you add in his AC bonus. Put him in Aslyferund Chain and his new base AC is -6 before factoring in his dexterity. Personally, I'd have this character use the studded leather of thorns +6. Lets figure this out.
Base AC =8.
Add one handed style: 6
18 dexterity: 2
Studded leather of thorns +6: -7
Ring of Gaxx: -9
I'll stop here. The point is that he will be very hard to hit. If fighter HLA's are important to you a Fighter/Thief multiclass only loses out on some damage and 2 AC points, so it's kind of a toss-up. I think that you should play a straight kensai though. By ToB your enemies will miss only when they get a critical miss. Your Kensai, however, will be able to take them down before they get a chance to attack, let alone hit or miss...

 

One thing to remember is that being a swordsman has absolutely nothing to do with what kind of defense you have. All it means is you can hit stuff. Take for example a gothic knight, (the most heavily armored knights in history to my knowledge). If you were to fight this guy when he didn't have a great sword and his armor, but let's say a dagger and a buckler? He'd still be a match for just about anyone.

But back to what you are looking at doing, the finesse fighter. The finess(SP?) fighter has his place in D&D, and it's definately not in a party as a stronger melee type. The closest you'll get is a kensai, which is IMHO an awesome finesse fighter and the reason I completely disagree with your statement that 2ed doesn't support 'dancers'. I believe in the description for the kensai it actually does say he is one with the weapon and a dancer of sorts.

My suggestion in other words would be to just play a kensai.

I know that it's probably gonna be taken as bad advice, considering he's labeled as a fighter and that means he's automatically out of the picture from what I've seen people posting, but the fact remains he is exactly the type of fighter you want.

Stats. They make the finesse fighter what he is. Unfortunately what happens with most of every player on these forums is they all roll until their heads blow up and get stats that are 18,18,18,18,18,3 and wonder why the game is so easy... If you want to play this character I would suggest first playing a character that is a true tank, (This doesn't mean play the whole game, but a part of it). - ie:
Str 18
Dex 8-10
Con 18
Int 8-10
Wis 8-10
Cha 8-18,

Then move on to play this dancer - ie:
Str 12-14
Dex 16-18
Con 14-16
Int, Wis, Cha whatever.

You'll immediately find that your AC is about the same because what you lose from going from studded to full plate is gained by having DEX. You'll also note that the str is mainly for damage not hitting. Of course BG series doesn't have feats and the like which make a weapon hit based on dex instead of str, but that doesn't really matter.

Lastly, a swordsman IMO makes use of everything he has, (and I get this opinion from watching duals at renne faires between different swordsmen). What this means exactly, is no swordsman goes into battle with just 1 sword and an empty hand. He'll wield a single long sword 2handed, or use a sword and shield, or a 2 swords. None of these forms means going sword and board and the shield is just to avoid hitting, (shield bash), or the off-hand weapon is for attacking, (parry), etc. Of course in the BG series you're limitted here as well. A swordsman should have his hands full. Maybe a 2handed sword, or 2 swords, or a sword and buckler, no need to be a shield, and abuckler is very small, but gives you reason to call yourself a swordsman and not have an empty hand.


Hope this helps.

 

Way too late now, but you can get a very effective build filling all of your requirements ("lightweight" I consider agile/dexterious/skilled fencer relying on avoiding enemy blows) with a FMT. Only memorize spells that protect you (the various armor spells, Mirror Image, Blur, ect), and you have a lightly armored fighter who doesn't get hit often.

[ December 20, 2005, 06:58: Message edited by: Klorox ]

 

I don't like the idea of (pure)Kensai because I will get hit A LOT, which somehow contradicts the whole idea of agility and dodging. Besides, I hate getting hit
As for stats, the F/Swsh I was going the first time had (IIRC) 16/18/16/16/10/8, I tried to make it RP'ed a bit...
About getting into battle with everything's what at hand - sure thing, if my life was at stake I'd take everything too... but it's a game, and I try to reproduce my 'dream character' as much as I can within the rules of game. Besides, to have +2AC and not to have +2AC is 4AC of difference

As for duealing Kensai/Thief, would it be possible to change Thief to Swsh later with Shadowkeeper? These bonuses of his are just too good to miss(That's +10 hit/dmg/AC at 50lvl!).

 

Take enough Kensai levels before you dual class and you'll hit hard enough. And assassination is an awesome feat.....which you don't get with a swashbuckler.

 

The thief is a good idea, but there are other ways of dealing with the AC issue, like wearing magic items, (of course you're limited on how many you can wear, but try using bracers of AC 3. It'd be the same as wearing plate mail. I've also learned that when you get to higher levels, such as ToB, you don't get missed very often even with an AC of -25. I had the Pantaloons armor and was still getting hit very often, and not killing fast enough, I had to cycle through my melee and heal with 2 clerics, while still using potions!!!).

But if you really want the armor then the best way to go is Kensai/Thief, or even berserker/thief, (nothing says that a finesse fighter can't rage!!), etc. with the other fighter kits.