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Memos reveal alleged threats to hush Iraq abuse

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Cúchulainn, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    Cúchulainn, Dec 8, 2004
    #1
  2. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Ragusa, Dec 8, 2004
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  3. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Sarcasm noted. Call me stary-eyed if you will, but I am of the opinion that these soldiers actually do represent, "a few bad apples". Look, even if there are 1,500 soldiers in Iraq who have committed abuse to prisoners, that still only represents 1% of the total forces there. I'm not condoning these actions, but I'm simply stating that in any given population, discovering that 1% of the total are sadistic *******s shouldn't really come as much of a surprise.

    If 99% are not doing these things, and 1% are, then I think it's fair to characterize the ones doing these things as "a few bad apples."
     
    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Dec 8, 2004
    #3

  4. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    Some towns over here have less than 1500 people. I would hate visit such a town that would have people in league with those 'few bad apples'.

    Besides these are the cases that we know about. There could be lots more to come. Look at any war and you only get to read about half of the atrocities 20+ years later.
     
    Cúchulainn, Dec 8, 2004
    #4
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    Nobody is condemning the soldiers (not primarily anyway). Soldiers are simply an extension of the political force which actually commands them. The problem we're getting at is that the US military top itself knew very well what was going on in Iraq, but a) did nothing about it until the actual photos came out (and not much after that either) and b) that they tried to hush it up (or play it down) once the torture became public knowledge. There's also a possible c) that they encouraged and practiced torture as part of standard interrogation. But I guess we'll never be able to be sure about this one, considering the trials of the soldiers who commited torture were all a farce and the actual blame didn't get traced any higher than the soldiers themselves.
     
    Taluntain, Dec 8, 2004
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  6. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
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    @ Aldeth: While I agree that such "bad apples" are in the minority, I would suggest that subcultural attitudes and a predisposition towards dehumanising the enemy in the most aggressive ways possible are more widespread. I may be stretching the concept a little far, but it's them same reason why police beat people and fabricate evidence - they are fighting a war, and the enemy neither understands nor deserves proper treatment. I would put the subject of the "Murderer Marine" topic in the same boat - a not entirely inexcusable or incomprehensible action, some would argue, but certainly an undesirable one.

    @ Tal: "What do you mean? They just decided to do this themselves - we didn't know!" *yeah, right*
     
    NonSequitur, Dec 9, 2004
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  7. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    They were encouraged to do so, that much should be clear by now. Such stuff doesn't just happen - sexual humiliation especially aimed on un-manning Arabs - sorry, too much of a coincidence for me.

    Silly hillbilly kids don't have the culturtal savvy to invent something as well calculated as that. That the officers in command get away is another indicator. It was encouraged and wanted from politicos high in command, one Mr. Cambone in particular.
     
    Ragusa, Dec 9, 2004
    #7
  8. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Not to say that you're wrong in saying they were encouraged, but to use this as backup to your supposition is ridiculous. Sexual humiliation is somehow a sophisticated tactic? You might as well say a punch to the face is sophisticated.
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 9, 2004
    #8
  9. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Adressing a proud macho culture in a un-manning way is unsophisticated? I mean, why haven't they been beating them in the face? Why this sexual element in prisoner treatment?

    Not to mention that these, as you say, unsophisticated, tactics were pioneered in Gitmo and then brought over to Iraq by some Gen. Miller. Already forgotten? Nevermind. Oooh, I got it: These brilliant hillbilly kids just ingeniously invented them in parallel! :rolleyes:

    The informations gathered through torture will probably be used in military trials against detainess in the US. People will tell anything under torturte just to make the suffering stop. So when one detainee eventually confesses the muder of JFK, are the US going to execute him?
     
    Ragusa, Dec 10, 2004
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  10. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
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    What about the 3 britons at 'Gitmo' - they confessed to being part of an al-Qaeda video. Under torture you will probably confess to anyting.

    Edit

    "The three men each said they eventually gave false confessions that they appeared in a video with al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and Mohammed Atta, one of the September 11 hijackers.

    They said this was despite the fact they could prove they were in Britain when the video was made."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3959635.stm

    [ December 10, 2004, 09:30: Message edited by: Cesard ]
     
    Cúchulainn, Dec 10, 2004
    #10
  11. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    C'mon Rags, you might as well ask why do prisoners sodomize other prisoners instead of beating them in the face. Sexual humiliation is as basic an abuse tactic as you can get. It didn't need to be "invented".
     
    Blackthorne TA, Dec 10, 2004
    #11
  12. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    Still the US wrote how-to guides for use in Guantanamo. Maybe what they do in the end is a little more sophisticated than the average jail abuse? News suggest that.
    taken from http://www.sundayherald.com/42067
     
    Ragusa, Dec 10, 2004
    #12
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