Monkee Business

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Ok heres the deal. I have never liked monks in CRPGs and have never made a serious effort to play one in any of the games they were choices for but after a long winded debate about how lousy I thought they were compared to "real warriors" in ID2 I decided that perhaps I should actually try playing them and thus was born this monkstrocity of a party.

Hedron shook his head sadly as they marched off his ship:

She who Speaks F Drow LG
Monk of the broken Ones 1/Painbearer 1
str-10
dex-20
con-8
int-12
wis- 18
cha-12

Leader of the pack monkee/cleric (painbearer)- has stayed with fists through the Palisades but has a shortbow now.

Gestures before Iron M Wild Elf LE
Monk of the Dark Moon 1/Sorcerer 2
str-8
dex-20
con-8
int-8
wis- 14
cha-18

monkee/sorcerer spells and longbow feats SF evocation 2

Shadow before Fist F Tiefling LN
Monk of the Old Order 1/Rogue 1
str-10
dex-20
con-10
int-12
wis- 18
cha-8

monkee/rogue stayed with fists through the Palisades has a Xbow now - Luck of heroes

Milk before Cookies M Aasimar LN
Monk of the Old Order 2
str-12
dex-18
con-14
int-8
wis- 20
cha-8

plain monkee 1 fists only so far - luck of heroes

Gnome Under Sink F Deep Gnome LG
Monk of the Broken Ones 1
str-8
dex-20
con-12
int-8
wis- 20
cha-6

plain monkee 2 Xbow mostly so far Strong back still level 1

Sleep before Work M Tiefling LE
Monk of the Dark Moon 2
str-12
dex-20
con-12
int-8
wis- 18
cha-8

plain monkee #3 fist only so far Great Fortitude

The 3 MCs will be allowed to take only a single monk level for each 4 levels of thier alternate class if they so wish.

All will play without armor.

All will be limited to fists for melee.

All may only choose a ranged weapon that they are already proficient in due to class or race. (crossbow sling or darts for all but the two elves who may use bows)- if they take a second pip in any ranged weapon they must use that one for the rest of the game.

Limited reloads - no more than 5 total and only if the entire party is killed. (unlimited free reloads for game crash/glitch)

I actually started this game a few weeks ago and finished the docks and the dopplganger and as we attacked Phaen the game crashed. Up to that point the party had not taken a scratch and no one used anything but fists. We reloaded an auto save as we left the docks and this time the dopplegeanger took one of them out and Phaen took another out and we are about to don our fed-ex gear and finish the prologue now.

Three have leveled (MC sorc, MC rogue, and one plain monkee) I will edit them in above once the others level as well.

Comments and/or snickers and giggles welcome...

[ February 04, 2006, 03:07: Message edited by: wanderon ]

 

Those names are priceless. I'm particularly fond of "Milk Before Cookies."

And here I thought you were going to create a 4 person party consisting of Michael, Peter, Mickey and Davey.

 

Indeed by the time I got to making the 4th one the silliness gene began to dominate...

I find it somewhat ironic that Milk before Cookies is actually my heftiest tank...

 

Keep us posted. Just so I can read your monks' names again.

Seriously, it sounds fun.

 

Well they made it through the Palisades with only a single death (Milk b4 Cookies) due to hold spell. They also took down the Iron Girdle Nannys but neither battle was pretty to watch.

The good news is of course they rarely get hit the bad news is they rarely hit anything either which is disturbing to watch...very long boring battles where only tiny bits of damage is done at one time...

The good news was also there were a couple extra random drops at the Palisades - the bad news is they were both magic armor - at least they added to the coffers...

The bad news is also that there are a lot of ECLs in this group so only the sorc is at level 3 after the Palisades and of course the svirf is still level 1. (the rest are at 2 with between 600 and 1600 to go to next level - two of each in fact)

The bad news is also one of my favorite spells for the early game is grease and its much less effective when you have all these melee fighters since it effects them too - should have taken sleep first...

All in all I have to admit this band of misfit monkees is doing better than I expected so I may be able to stand them for a little while longer...

Character levels and feats have been added to starting post...

 

They made it through Dereths map as well with a few deaths along the way but they are just to boring to continue on with. Its not only painful to have sit and watch them nit pick away at their foes a point or two at a time but theres nothing to look forward to getting either since all melee weapons and armor are totally useless to the group. I kept a save just before entering the Village map but unless I wake up feeling very masochistic some day I'm not likely to load it up anytime soon...

Anyone with any interest is welcome to duplicate the party and tell us how it all comes out tho...

 

Let me echo Death Rabbit -- the experiment was worth it for the names alone! "Milk before Cookies", indeed!

 

The truth is I have almost as much fun creating parties as I do playing them...

 

You have highlighted the main problem with a monk only party and that is that there benefits are stacked at the first level and the very high levels. Low level monks are not that flash in combat and work better in conjunction with other characters. Once they get into higher levels they start to overtake other classes, but that would not be until the end of Chapter Two.

 

Or even later than that I suspect- I have never taken a monk beyond around level 4-5 but I have heard that they really don't start to shine until almost level 20 - more of a HOF character.

This particular group of course was nerfed even further by taking away all melee choices- they might have been more playable had I used weapons early on unitl their fists got better but that has always bothered me about the class- if they are designed to play unarmored and unarmed then they should be as effective at that from the start as other classes are with normal weapons IMNSHO...

The whole thing was really instigated by a long winded argument I had with someone over how good/lousy the class is compared to other warriors (since they are supposedly a warrior class)

 

Part of their problem is that monks gain BAB at the same rate as clerics, i.e. in the 75% (3 BAB for every 4 levels) group (i.e. priests, rogues, bards, and monks). If they are truly "warriors", shouldn't they be in the 100% group with the other warrior classes.

One problem that I have with monks is that they seem to be such a low swag class that they can be no fun to play. They just don't use all that many items in a game where collecting good stuff for your characters is part of the fun. I suppose that it might have helped if there had been a nice amount of monk-related items available for purchase (not that monks should have any money) at the monastery.


Also, it may be a bit cliched, but it seems to me that "monks" should be just as skilled with some weapons as they are with unarmed combat. Weapons like staves, bows, perhaps slings, daggers, darts, perhaps certain swords, etc. I realize that this is a little outside of the norm for 3e, with its everyone can do everything (weapons) concept, which is generally good.

Perhaps they should start with these types and further be allowed mastery in these limited types.


Another problem that I have is that IMHO monk fists should be a finesse DEX based weapon, not a STR based weapon. Hell, I think that I could argue that their considerable skill and fighting style should make them eligible to use DEX, not STR, as their primary determiner of BAB for all legit monk weapons, even those not normally considered weapon finesse-able.


I suppose that a monk's WIS is representative of their exceptional skill in unarmed, or at least unarmored combat. But it seems as if monks don't really keep up with their armored comrades. I don't know if we should say that this is due to a lack of supplimentary AC enhancing items or a lack of class ability allowing them to keep up. Monks appear to get +1 AC for every 5 levels. Perhaps it should really be 1 per 3 or 1 per 4 levels.


Maybe one day I'll give'em a try. Or maybe not.

 

I have just started a new game and am not going to multiclass any character (one of whom is a monk, using a 6 man party) He is level 4 and just cleaned out Toraks base in the village. Had him stand alone at the gate to bottle neck the orcs and he hardly took any damage at all. I'm enjoying this experience as he is my first monk. Can't wait to see what he can do at the end of goblin warrens.

 

I agree with all those points Crucis and in fact the only thing about a monk that seems to put them in the warrior class at all is their class description which starts out the monk is a warrior...

@ Mad Haggis - good luck with you party and your monk - even with my limited expertience with them I have found them useful for decoys between their high AC and evasion you can use them to run right into the middle of the enemy formation gathering your foes around them in glee and then have your nuker drop his bombs on the bunch and watch the fun as the monk evades the damage and the enemy is bar-b-qued. Easy as goblin pie...

 

Wanderon, it would probably be possible to make a few of my suggested changes (increaseing HP/level from 8 to 10; increasing rate of AC bonus growth; adjusting starting weapon profs; monk fists as weapon finessed weapon; monk items at monastary) in a simple mod.

But other changes (allowing weapon specialization in "legit monk weapons", improved BAB progression; allowing monks to use DEX as primary BAB stat or something similar; ) would be impossible without writing some sort of C++ DLL (which I've seen someone else do, by the way).


FYI, monk fists as weapon finessed "weapons" is one of the submods in Wiemur's Ease of Use mod.

 

Frankly I have just never been much interested in playing a monk- its one of the few classes in BG2 I never at least rolled up and looked at (along with a kensai). I think its partly my stinky old "western" prejudice that leads me to wanting swords and shields instead of Hop Chop Suey or Karate Kid in my medieval fantasy games...

 

You're right crucis, the monk class could have been handled so much better. His fists should be finesse weapons; throwing an effective punch depends less on brute strength and more on balance, coordination, and speed which are all conveyed through dexterity.

Also, d10 hit dice and enhanced BAB should be a given considering the monk hails from the warrior class and he should gain bonus AC points quicker considering he must fight "naked".

Sure the monk gains some very good class specific goodies but their starting ability points are diluted as you must have decent STR and CON, high DEX and WIS, INT high enough to gain feats such as hid and move silently. CHA is the lone area that you could reasonably disregard.

On a somewhat related note; what's up with the corny sound set for NPC monks at the monestary. Their battle cries sound like they were stolen from a poorly dubbed 60's kung-fu flick.

 

@nunsbane,

Actually, if you use the EoU submod that makes monk fists weapon-finesse-able "weapons", you don't really need all that much STR, at least for your BAB. Yes, a low STR would limit your damage and your carrying capacity, although you can improve the latter by taking the strongback feat.

And yes, you are definitely correct that monks are very stat intensive. You can get away without much INT, if you choose to forego skills. That said, Even a human with an INT of 8 should (?) get 2 SP/level which is enough for having strong Hide and Move Silently skills.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing monks use WIS, rather than STR as their damage modifying stat. My justification is that monks are using their uber-skills, not raw STR to fight. And the more wise the monk, the more likely they are do cause great damage. Even the seemingly old, wizened, but bery wise monk might be able to cause great damage due to his outstanding skill in unarmed combat. Heck, I'd probably allow them to use WIS as a damage bonus with monk weapons as well, since they will have trained with them perhaps as much as in unarmed combat.


I do have to agree with Wanderon, that it often seems strange to have kung fu fighting "monks" in a swords and sorcery environment. However, it is fantasy and if one person's vision of this fantasy includes martial artists, ok, I guess I can live with that. I just wish that they were made good enough that you don't have to wait for them to attain uber-high levels to be as good as their armored warrior brethren.


Regarding the sounds in the monastary, I suppose that that's the price we pay for having monks in the game in the first place, grasshopper.

 

I was just doing a little bit of poling around some files in IWD2 using Near Infinity and I discovered something interesting.

Monk fists are considered "2 handed" weapons. Thus, a high STR monk should be doing a little more damage than you might realize. Definitely surprised me a little.


Also, I know that some people in the past have complained that BIS didn't include the Flurry of Blows monk ability. While I don't own the 3ed rulebook on which IWD2 was based, I do own the 3.5ed book. And there doesn't appear to be a seperate table for unarmed/HtH combat in the monk description. It seems to me that they use the standard BAB table whether armed or HtH. OTOH, there is a seperate column for the Flurry of Blows ability. This is making me think that for some reason, BIS included the unarmed monk BAB table as some sort of workaround for Flurry of Blows. Not really sure why they'd have needed a workaround.

Also the 3.5 ed unarmed damage doesn't quit match what's used in the IWD2 manual.


Another related thought... Many of us are aware of the Wiemur EoU mod "fix" that makes monk fists into "light weapons" (for weapon finesse) by switching them from "hand-to-hand" to "small blades". However, it occured to me today that this might cause a problem. While these small blade/light weapon "Fists" might now be weapon finesse-able, are they still seen as unarmed whatever by the game engine so that they can use the Monk Unarmed Combat BAB table? Makes me wonder.

FYI, I don't think that it affects the power of the fists, since they appear to be assigned by the "CLAB" file. The damage dice and enchantment of monk fists are defined by the various monk fist item files. And those ITM files are given by the CLAB file.

But do small blade, light weapon, weapon finesse-able Monk Fists remain unarmed attacks? I don't know (yet).

 

They remain unarmed attacks. The tweak does exactly what it's supposed to do. The only thing I noticed was wrong is that you get the weapon finesse bonus even if you never actually took the feat......but that may have changed since the last time I played through IWD2.

 

All I know is I just cleared out the crash site at the start of chapter 2, and my whole party is almost level 8. My monks speed is amazing. He either stands at a bottle neck and holds of entire hordes of enemies, or in a wide open space they just chase him around allowing the rest of the party to use missile weapons. Add his high evasion and saving throws. I might try a party entirely of monks next time. Can't believe I used to go with paladins instead. Much more fun using monk (named him Rasputin).