Most of us agree that Sorcerers are the most powerful... but

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I'm playing a wizard slayer dual to thief at level 14. He's got 30 thief levels and he just walks through spell casters...

With his hide in shadows, non detection, 100% detect illusion, 10 attacks per round (5 if suprised and he can't get imp haste off), assassination, 10% spell failure per hit, time traps etc. 100% magic resistance (though not at the same time as the 5 attacks per round!)

He truly does give even a prepared sorcerer a run for his money! In fact I suggest that he would beat most sorcerors of same exp level...

Any suggestions as to how the sorceror could cope?

 

I think this may work even with a normal mage:

1) Sorcerer uses this Chain Contingency that activates when seeing the enemy: [shadow door, Mordenkainen Sword x2].

2) Wizard Slayer/Thief tries to detect illusions to find the sorcerer while fending off the swords.

3) Wizard Slayer/Thief is defeated a couple of seconds later, when the sorcerer uses Time Stop and Imprisonment (ignores MR) on him.

 

2... Runs away... comes back after spell duration.
Once the chain contingency has fired it is obviously a get out of here moment. But other than stone skin having protections up all the time is not that feasible!

3... Youve not got a target... a hidden, non -detectable thief is not that easy to see.

 

2. ADHWx2 and after the timestop, any char would be dead.....

 

Mmm.... how about this?

2.a... Mordy's swords would go after the WS/T the moment he starts running, so he can only hide using invisibility potions or rings then, unless he can outrun the swords. If the WS/T uses magic potions or rings, the Sorc then could cast Dispel Magic, which should cancel the invisibility as spell, regardless of Non-Detection (although I have to try this first), forcing the WS/T to engage the Mordy's Swords or use more potions/rings.

2.b...If the WS/T outruns the swords and hide in shadows, the sorc can always cast protection from Evil and invoke a trusty pit fiend in the general direction where the WS/T went. Fiends can see invisible/hidden creatures IIRC.


3.. The sorc will have a target the moment the WS/T decides to attack him or the pit fiend. The attack will be wasted against stoneskin.

Instead of TS and Imprisonment, the sorc can use Maze, which is nearly instantaneous and also by-passes MR. Unless your WS/T is a genius, he should spend quite a while in the maze. The sorc meanwhile summons more fodder and casts Mislead to be out of the way before the WS/T re-appears. Then Time Stop from a safe distance the moment he shows up.

If that fails, I'd say... Expeditious retreat!

EDIT: @Balle

Good point, but you are forgetting the Wizard Slayer's magic resistance. He may be unafected, or just get half damage with a saving throw.
A dual-classed character has quite an amount of hit points.

 

Assuming the standard equip i'm carrying in the game Mordy's swords are no problem... Run away with boots of speed, corner, hide in shadows. They cannot see hidden with non-detect. You cannot dispel hide in shadows nor non-detection cloak.

The pit fiend is interesting wild card to throw in... god knows whether it would help or hinder you and your other summons.

As for point 3... it is not the point to damage you... if i get one round hitting you i won't do any damage due to your protection but you'll never cast another spell, WS cumulative 10% spell failure goes straight through everything..... v powerful.

Also if we are doing cheese then lure your summons onto time traps, go back and detect illusions and hack you to pieces.

I honestly think this could go either way depending on a bit of luck and second guessing your opponent. There was a beserker vs sorcerer thread a while back which more or less concluded the sorcerer would win in nearly all cases.

WS/Thieves with the ability to be invisible, detect invisible, get up to 100% MR, and 10% Spell failure per hit does add another dimension to the debate.

 

Is casting from scrolls affected by spell failure?

EDIT:
I consider using the Time Stop traps fair play. They are there to be used.

 

Taking into account they have the same exp. the sorcerer casts dispel likely cancelling most protections immediatly. Then runs around until spells can be cast again. If the WS runs away to hide again, follow to stop him, if he uses scrolls or items to hide, use another dispel.

Spell Trigger, two lower resistance and Greater Malison (prepped before battle) fired once detected.

1) Then there is power word blind, chain contingincy ADHW (x3 or x2? I never use this because I don't like it) fired when hit. followed by a power word kill or imprsionment.

2) Or cast timestop, Imp Alac, then fire as many or skull traps or sunfires as possible.

If all goes well, the sorcerer would have an easy time. This doesn't take into account pre set traps and is based on the WS not hitting the caster. What if the WS was using a bow with +3 arrows? Would probably use an illusion spell to ditract the thief from casting long enough to fire the time stop.

 

@Colthrum, re: Is casting from scrolls affected by spell failure? Great point... I've no idea cos no script that I've come across does it. I will give it a go when I get time.

I've got to say I'm a huge sorcerer fan... so in a way i'm hoping that they can get out of this... But I think WS/Thieves have all the attributes to give sorcerors a really hard time... The time stop traps are great cos they auto fire... and summons may well just play into the thief's hands.

@Malovae... I had not bothered putting any spell resistances up for the WS/Thief. It is all about the initial round. Remember you've got to stop the WS from hitting you and stoneskins are not going to work. 10 hits = 100% spell failure = dead sorcerer.

The simulcrum helm does give you a bit of an extra thing to worry about... as that image has cause spell failure built in too! If it comes down to equipment then the WS/T can use everything in the game. So scrolls on both sides!!!! Imprisonment and maze scrolls and staff of magi's spell trap!

 

But of course, I had forgotten the Use Any Item HLA... You've got a neat character there, It'd would be quite a fight.

 

I was thinking of making one of these myself - now I know I will.

BTW, why did you choose to dual at level 14 rather than the more-typical level 13?

 

14 gets one extra 1/2 attack per round, IIRC.
There is no question about whether to dual wield... you simply have to ... and then stick something like blem in your off hand... that way you can get 5 att per round with the gloves of extraordinary weapon specialisation.

The MR at 100% only comes with Carosmyr... So it is defend with Carosmyr (and staff of magi spell shield + invis)... attack with CF and Belm or some similar combo... + Imp haste is your friend! Against non spell casters, time traps + 10 attacks per round + assassination = too much damage to calculate!!!

 

Actually, the extra 1/2 attack comes at level 13. But no big loss on your part - your thaco improved a bit by waiting until level 14, as did your saving throws and MR.

 

Easily the worst bit was the levelling up to get the WS activated again... Char was very weak and needed every trick I know to level up quickly. Then it is quite pleasurable up to UAI... when it is really, really big fun. Forget anything but solo... it is just a waste of exp!

 

If the wizardslayer/thief has standard ecquipment so has the sorcerer thus the sorcerer will have staff of the magi. You cannot strike what you cannot see, detect illusion is useless as the sorcerer can just re-ecquip the staff everytime the invisibility is dispelled. With that simple cheesy tactic only so is the sorcerer untouchable. May not be able to do anything offensive but that is a later problem.

 

But you have to think that the WST can do the same. Just re-equip the staff every time invisiblity is purged. Not only can the WST use any item or scroll that the Sorc can, but he can also use all of the other items from any other character.

I think that the WST would be able to defeat the Sorc, though it would be an extremely long battle.

 

@Scythe... just curious, is your WS/T solo? If not, I'm just wondering about the rest of your party makeup with that combo because it sounds interesting to play.

 

quote Splunge:

Heh, I already have. And I love 'em!

I think the WS/T would win, if he can take advantage of traps. But to do that, he'd have to lure the sorc away from his starting place to where the traps are, which an intelligent sorc wouldn't do. (Ha, too bad sorcs don't have to be inteliigent to get more spells!)

 

Both of them will be invisible at will, thanks to SotM. So the only things to tip the balance will be certain summons, timestops with true sight and area effect spells. So i think the sorc will win.

 

@ chiz:
the sorc gets summons: the WS//T can attack and kill them, since he is, after all, a powerful fighter. (plus the use of assassination would demolish those summons.)
The sorc gets timestop: so does the WS//T, using the time trap.
The sorc gets true sight: the WS//T gets detect illusions.
The sorc has area effect spells: the WS//T can cast from scrolls to get any spell he wants. He can also wear the Robe of the Vecna if he plans on using lots of scrolls.

It all boils down to the following question: can the WS//T get 10 hits in before the sorc kills him?
And that question boils down to maintaining invisibiity on the part of the sorcerer.