Much more than fraternity pranks ...

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Worse Footage from Abu Ghraib to Come - so at least say Seymour Hersh and the british Independent.

Very sad but true: If the Serbs comitted war crimes by raping in Bosnia, so did the US military wardens in Abu Ghraib, much more as they not only had to keep their inmates locked up - they also had to guarantee their personal integrity - as they were all mere suspects (and iirc some 90% of those the US locked up were innocent bystanders, neighbours, relatives, according to a US intel officer).
And all of that on video - seems the guards didn't have much of a feeling that what they do could be, just a thought, a crime or be wrong. Evidently, they felt they could get away with this and didn't fear to produce evidence.

That much for Limbaughs "sorority pranks".

[ July 16, 2004, 16:45: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

First off: it's "fraternity" pranks. Sororities are chicks.

Second: I haven't seen the video yet. But despite all I've heard about it, this story hasn't broken big yet in the so-called liberal media. There's probably a reason for that. One that I've heard in more than one place is that the soldiers are actual the original Abu Graihb prison guards under Saddam, and that this video was taken before the war.

I would like to see a more [thorough] investigation to find out what really happened. But if what they say is true, and that the Pentagon has video of this and are covering it up, that is truly dispicable. Just when it looked like we MAY have been starting to weather the original abuse storm, a revelation like this will ensure our failure in the region.

edit - Removed ill-advised choice of words.

 

Given that the detainees were sodomized, I'm not sure a "more penetrative" investigation is what's called for.

EDIT: I'm sorry DR - it was just too funny, although your response below was pretty good too.

[ July 16, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

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Dammit. That's all I can say.

/me prepares tasteless joke.

Well, if they really want to win those hearts and minds, they're starting at the wrong end!

*ba-doom tish!*

I hate myself.

 

Ah well, fratenity pranks ...

The failure in the region isn't really what would bother me.

I actually wondered why there was no uproar in the so-called Arab-world, and when I spoke to an arab working colleague of mine about it, he laughed at me, adding that Arabs weren't outraged because they knew it all along. It wasn't news to them, they saw it all on Al Jazeera long before the Americans noticed.

What concerns me is that US troops have comitted war crimes and that nothing happens except for some token trials. It's about criminals getting away.

And IMO the failure in the region came way earlier, and I think that was when the US invaded Iraq and stopped to be a neutral party and joined the Israelis, fully endorsing their brutal actions.

 

Have you ever read anything by Tom Clancy? American POWs getting sodomised by Irani Muslim fundamentalist guards is the ultimate crime and ultimate insult.

Now the roles have inverted.

Of course, they should answer for that like for normal rape. Not like the previous plain and dull prisoner abuse ending in one year behind the bars and degradation. Just like brutal rape. In the US it ends up in death penalty sometimes, from what I know. I'm against death penalty, but a long term in prison is what I would like to see. Not like I believe it's going to happen. Up to five years, loss of ranks and medals and discharge from the military is my prediction.

 

Just what the occupying forces needed - a couple of ********s making life more dangerous and giving local militia/resistance forces another rallying cry. I'm familiar with what is necessary as far as information extraction techniques, and this goes far beyond any purposive strategy I've ever encountered.

"Tactical interrogation" is one thing. I can justify torture (or any such euphemism) if the violations visited upon a person are carried out in order to save hundreds or thousands of lives, if the people who order it are prepared to bear the consequences if they are wrong, and if the best treatment and care is available to restore those subjected to it (ie: nothing permanent). This is just abominable. Sexual violence is exactly that: violence. It has no place in any civilised society, ever, under any circumstances. The effects of rape are well-documented, and generally severe. Coupled with any religious connotations about the status of homosexuality (I am not familiar with the position it occupies in any branches of Islam), and the deliberateness of the act, this can only be viewed as a violation of the worst order and an act motivated only by power and sadism.

Sadly, I don't see these guys getting the treatment they deserve from any court-martial. IMO, it should be a dishonourable discharge (no pun intended), followed by being handed over to the interim government for a full public trial. The only way to salvage anything from this will be complete transparency of criminal procedure and justice before the victims of these crimes and the Iraqi people as a whole.

Of course, that's a pipe dream...

[Edit: Clarification]

[ July 19, 2004, 04:11: Message edited by: NonSequitur ]

 

There is no justification whatsoever for sexual violence in any given circumstances.

I agree with NonSequitur that, however people will typically justify whatever they do, this isn't justified by any purpose in any way.

 

I don't know where you heard that, but it is definitely false. The only time I have ever heard of someone being executed from committing rape was when there were other charges that he was also found guilty of - usually murder. The maximum prison length for committing rape is life imprisonment. Now, some may argue that life imprisonment is the equivalent of the death penalty, but that's not the topic up for discussion.

Anyway, the length of conviction is also different depending on prior history of convictions. For example, rape is a felony, and if you have been convicted of two past felonies (regardless of whether or not those felonies included rape) then under the "Three Strikes You're Out" Rule, you would be sent to prison for life. I have no idea of what the minimum sentence is for rape, but it has to be pretty severe - I'd say 10 years at a bare minimum, even if the accused has no previous criminal history.

 

By doing what they do, you become what they are.

 

"He who fights monsters should take care that he does not become a monster himself..."

I can't support mandatory sentencing, and can only support punitive sentences in the worst cases. As far as I'm concerned, this qualifies as one such case - these actions are premeditated, sadistic and brutal. Fortunately, there is video evidence of these rapes and the usual defences of consent or mistaken belief are right out of the question. Hopefully, it means these soldiers (and their supervisors, most likely) are neck-deep in it and there is no way of dodging trial. I just hope they don't get treated softly. When someone does something like this in peacetime, the public response is usually to advocate castration (and that's the cleaned-up version). I think we'll be lucky if these guys go to a non-military court to face charges at all. So much for justice if that's what happens.

 

History and experience teach us that when it comes from "the police of the world" we'll never see guilty people behind bars, maybe one or two guys will take the blame but in the end they even walk free.