Multi vs. Dual classing

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All,

Just bought ToB this weekend (I'm a late bloomer) and read through the manual. The high level abilities look really cool, but I have a question for the more experienced gamers out there.

Is it worth multi classing, or should I just dual class. The obvious advantage would be picking abilities from two different schools, but would that be advantageous if I can only get to level 25 or so for multi classing, then is that even an advantage?

Any thoughts and suggestions are greatly welcome.

 

I think there's a xp cap remover out there. Check Sorcerers' files.

 

I'm a fan of dual classing. Here are some reasons, in no particular order/importance:

1. High-level abilities and spells in ToB are truly awesome.

2. You can pick a kit in your first class if you dual.

3. I see dual classing as a way to beef up the second class, instead of having a pure second class. You can overcome the poor hp, THAC0, proficiencies, etc. of the second class and gain some nifty abilities of the first kit.

4. Done properly, you can get within one or two levels of a maxed-out pure class (and will be better all-around).

5. Consider a bard kit instead of a multiclassed character. Levels up fast, and plenty of fun, too.

My favorite combinations are Berserker/Mage, Archer/Cleric, and Kensai/Thief. I'd like to hear some pro multiclass arguments, if anyone favors them strongly.

 

Archer/Cleric???? clerics can't use missile weapons, can they?

 

Clerics may not use slashing or piercing weapons. They can use slings, which is a blunt missile weapon. Archers can reach grandmaster proficiency in any missile weapon, including slings.

 

I also like dual-classing. It is good way to make character more versatile, without big drawbacks. For example, any character, who dual classes from fighter, gets more hit points, better THAC0, weapon proficiencies, ability to use almost all weapons...
So mage with even seven levels of fighter is much more powerful than pure mage. Ok, mages get free spells in the beginning, but dual class mages can learn them from scrolls and get experience.

Multiclassed characters are good sometimes, but I prefer dual classing.

[ April 23, 2003, 18:43: Message edited by: Harkle ]

 

This is the ToB forum, right?
I just can't believe anyone would recommend dual classing over multiclassing in ToB. In SoA, sure, but not in ToB!

Multiclassing is so much better than dual classing in ToB. Now I leave you to ponder on this for a few seconds. It shouldn't take longer than that to understand why. Will be back later in case there is some lost soul who still can't see the light.

Why recommend an xp cap remover? Did he ask for that? Sheesh!

 

I'll admit that I've never dual classed, but I like to have at least one multi-class in my group. You get HLA from 2 different classes, and if you have a class with poor hit dice, the multi class helps offset that. In the case of a cleric mage, you can set up some pretty sweet contingencies and sequencers, and you'll rarely run out of spells. The ability to use more magic items is also quite sweet, although with a part thief, if you select Use any Item it is kind of pointless.

The only thing I wish would be if a multi class fighter could achieve grand mastery. I mean, Anomen can reach Grand Mastery even though he is no longer a fighter, and that's a violation of 2E rules, so why not break the rules even further and let multi-classed fighters do the same?

I have to admit, though, that the dual classed characters in BG2 (Nalia, Imoen and Anomen) are pretty darn formidable -- Nalia is a miserable thief, but her ability to use bows and other thief weapons and items is very sweet. The same can be said to a lesser degree of Imoen, and Anomen, well, you give him Grand Mastery with the sling and Mace, suit him up with a good belt and his holy symbol, and watch the bad guys tumble (especially if he uses Draw Upon Holy Might!)

I wouldn't discount the possibilities of either technique -- it all depends on your style, as I have said so many times before.

 

I've done both and it really depends on what you're looking for.

For me, I like the ability to cast all spells from all schools, so a multi-class cleric/mage is pretty sweet. The ability to chain literally any spell into a chain contingency is wonderful (not to mention life-saving) -- especially with HLA spells.

As someone said, dual-classing in SoA is fine and good but hard to fathom once you start ToB. Why deprive yourself of HLAs?

Regarding bards -- the only bad thing about bards, as a whole, is the limit to 6th level spells. Use Any Item (UAI) and traps make your bard nearly as competent as a F/M/T. Many complain about the improved bard song but it does provide many immunities not only to the bard, but to the party as well.

 

Nope, you didn't quite get it or at least you didn't explain it well enough.

- High Level Abilities (HLA)
Multiclass starts gaining HLA's at a combined xp of 3,000,000 while a dual class start gaining them when the xp of the second class reaches 3,000,000.

Lets take an extreme example:
At 4,500,000xp.
Dual F-13/M-18 has only one (1) mage type HLA.
Multiclass F-17/M-16 has seven (7!) warrior and mage HLA's.

- Character Improvement
After level 20, characters more or less stop improving. For example base THAC0 is capped at 0 so warriors are especially hurt by this.

- Dual class weakness
The first class of a dual classed character is weak, possibly so weak as to make it insignificant. For example dualing a Fighter after level 9 - which was excellent in SoA - leaves that character with such a low Base THAC0 as to make it practically useless in ToB.
This is why a fighter should get to at least level 12 and IMO preferably to level 13 before dualling in ToB (not that I'd ever do that). That's 1,250,000 wasted xp as fasr as HLA's go and an awful long time spent weak and pathetic in the class you dual to before your first class gets reactivated.

The only reason I can see for choosing dual class over multiclass in ToB is when you desperately want a kit as one of the classes.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

- Concerning Bards
Clearly bards do not even begin to compare with the power of a multiclass character. Enough said.

@Depaara
What if Imoen or Nalia had been multiclass T/M instead? Already at 10th level mages have the same base THAC0 as a 7th or 8th level thief so the few thief levels Nalia and Imoen have are irrelevant with regard to their fighting skill. They might as well have dualed after one theif level. Besides, are you sure you're not thinking of Nalia/Imoen in SoA? In ToB they should IMO not be fiddling with bows anymore, instead they ought to be busy casting spells.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Examples of base THAC0 (numbers might be off by 1 in some places)

Fighter-Mage combinations
At 3,000,000 xp:
Dual F-9/M-17 base THAC0: 12
Dual F-13/M-14 base THAC0: 8
Multi F-14/M-14 base THAC0: 7

At 4,500,000 xp:
Dual F-9/M-21 base THAC0: 12
Dual F-13/M-18 base THAC0: 8
Multi F-17/M-16 base THAC0: 4

At 6,000,000 xp:
Dual F-9/M-25 base THAC0: 12
Dual F-13/M-22 base THAC0: 8
Multi F-20/M-18 base THAC0: 1

At 8,000,000 xp:
Dual F-9/M-31 base THAC0: 12
Dual F-13/M-28 base THAC0: 8
Multi F-24/M-20 base THAC0: 0

Thief-Mage combinations
At 3,000,000 xp:
Dual T-9/M-17 base THAC0: 15
Dual T-13/M-16 base THAC0: 14
Multi T-16/M-14 base THAC0: 13

At 4,500,000 xp:
Dual T-9/M-21 base THAC0: 13
Dual T-13/M-20 base THAC0: 14
Multi T-20/M-16 base THAC0: 11

Fighter-Cleric combinations
At 3,000,000 xp:
Dual F-9/C-20 base THAC0: 8
Dual F-13/C-15 base THAC0: 8
Multi F-14/C-14 base THAC0: 7

At 4,500,000 xp:
Dual F-9/C-21 base THAC0: 6
Dual F-13/C-20 base THAC0: 8
Multi F-20/C-16 base THAC0: 1

[ April 23, 2003, 15:24: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

Great post Earl Grey!
I've always thought that multiclass characters are much better then DC ones.

I still do

 

Earl, thank you! That was about the most compelling arguement for multi-class I've ever seen, and I for one am now convinced on what I've suspected all along...multi is the way to go. You just can't argue with statistics like that.

[edit] I also never knew the HLAs were based on experience points. I had thought they were based on character level. That makes a huge difference as far as I'm concerned.

Do you have these stats for ranger/cleric, mage/thief, cleric/thief and fighter/druid as well? I'd appreciate it.

[ April 23, 2003, 17:21: Message edited by: Death Rabbit ]

 

I'm not the math whiz you obviously are, Earl Grey, but here's my 2 cents about Nalia and Imoen. By ToB, you are right, they have pretty well left their thieving roots behind. Both of them only lose about one level from if they had been pure magic users (ie-they can only get to level 31 instead of 32) and they can do the following things that a regular mage cannot:

1: Wear Elven chain
2: Use short bows, short swords,and clubs
3: Jump themselves up with potions and use all thief skills
4: wear any helmet and use bucklers.

So there are some advantages there, and they get a lot more HLA than a multi class would, right? Though come to think of it, even a multi class thief mage can get all the HLA a mage can, right? I'll have to check that. They certainly can cast more spells (as they reach a higher level as a mage than a multiclass) which is nice.

Like I said, though, while I love the girls (I think Nalia is hot!) when creating characters, I prefer multiclassing.

 

@Earl Grey
Thanks for doing the math for us! You've definitely given us some things to consider. However, I must disagree with your blanket statement that multi is better than dual. It depends far more on your party and style of play. Perhaps your style is to have your multiclass character perform the duties of both classes, hence your argument based on THAC0 and HLAs. But what if I want my F/M to just hang in the back and be a pure spellcaster? In my post, I said some duals are an improvement over pure classes, because I like to have pure, specialized roles in my party. I want my mages to be extremely good at magic, warriors at fighting, etc. But that's just me, maybe multis work better for you. They can definitely fill roles that may be lacking in a party, and in my next multiplayer game you've made me think of adding some .

Regarding bards, there has been some discussion lately about bards vs. M/T or F/M/T. Again, you can't say that bards cannot compare with muliclass characters. Pick whichever one you feel is best for your style. It is to AD&D's credit that so much character variety and playing style possibilites are build into the game: pure, kits, multi, and dual.

CORRECTION: After doing some searches here, it seems that Archers cannot be dualled to Clerics. Only Rangers and Beastmasters can, for some odd reason. Not sure if this has changed with patches.

 

One important (ToB) multiclass advantage, which was not made not clear in my previous post, is that multiclass characters choose HLA from the pool of all their classes whenever they get a new HLA.
For example: a multi F/M gaining a new mage level is not restricted to the mage HLA's, but can choose a fighter type HLA if desired.

@Djizzu G'izmo
Remember, in SoA dual class is far superior to multiclass, but in ToB multiclass is the stronger choice.

@Death Rabbit
It's quite easy to figure out how many HLA you get.
Everytime you gain a new level from 3,000,000 xp and on you also gain a new HLA. For dual classed characters xp gained in th first clas do not count for this purpose.
OK, here are a few examples (the dual class combinations here are just examples and not my suggestion of the proper level to dual class at):

Ranger-Cleric combination
at 4,500,000 xp
dual Ran-13/Cle-21 has no (0!) HLA's
multi Ran-15/Cle-18 has seven (7) ranger and/or cleric type HLA's

at 6,000,000 xp
dual Ran-13/Cle-28 has seven (7) cleric type HLA's
multi Ran-20/Cle-21 has fourteen (14) ranger and/or cleric type HLA's

Thief-Cleric combination
at 4,500,000 xp
dual Thi-13/Cle-25 has four (4) mage type HLA's
multi Thi-20/Cle-18 has eight (8) thief and/or cleric type HLA's

at 6,000,000 xp
dual Thi-13/Cle-31 has ten (10) mage type HLA's
multi Thi-23/Cle-21 has fourteen (14) thief and/or cleric type HLA's

Thief-Mage combination
at 4,500,000 xp
dual Thi-13/Mag-20 has three (3) mage type HLA's
multi Thi-20/Mag-16 has seven (7) thief and/or mage type HLA's

at 6,000,000 xp
dual Thi-13/Mag-24 has seven (7) mage type HLA's
multi Thi-23/Mag-18 has twelve (12) thief and/or mage type HLA's

@Depaara
I'm not saying that Imoen and Nalia are bad in ToB, just that they are not examples of dual classing being better than multiclassing.

@Drumheller
What is the purpose of dual classing? If the purpose is only to allow the use of extra class-specific items, then dual classing serves that purpose perfectly.

This is indeed a viable idea. Let's take a closer look at it! (In this case dual classign after reaching Fig-9 makes sense to me since that gives a solid base of HP's.)

at 3,000,000 xp
dual Fig-9/Mag-17: 0 HLA, spells: 3*7th, 2*8th
single Mag-18: 1 HLA, spells: 3*7th, 2*8th, 1*9th
multi Fig-14/Mag-14: 2 HLA, spells: 1*7th

at 4,500,000 xp
dual Fig-9/Mag-21: 4 HLA, spells: 4*7th, 3*8th, 2*9th
single Mag-22: 5 HLA, spells: 5*7th, 3*8th, 2*9th
multi Fig-17/Mag-16: 7 HLA, spells: 2*7th, 1*8th

at 6,000,000 xp
dual Fig-9/Mag-25: 8 HLA, spells: 5*7th, 4*8th, 3*9th
single Mag-26: 9 HLA, spells: 5*7th, 4*8th, 3*9th
multi Fig-20/Mag-18: 12 HLA, spells: 3*7th, 2*8th, 1*9th

What these figures do not show is that a single class wizard could be a specialist wizard or even better: a Sorcerer, making it a much better spellcaster than the dual class character. This type of dual class character should be compared with a single class character and not a multiclass character because the stated purpose is
to

The advantage of this kind of dual class character is higher HP's and, compared to a single class, access to fighter class items. Is that enough of an advantage? IMO, no.
A sorcerer or a specialist wizard is the way to go if you want a pure spellcaster.
Back to bards again, eh?
I fail to see how it's possible to compare a Bard with for example a multiclass Theif/Mage.

Take a Thi-23/Mag-18 vs a Bard-37.
HLA: Massive advantage to T/M
Spells: Massive advantage to T/M
Thieving ability: Massive advantage to T/M
Combat ability: Umm... what are your warriors doing?
Support ability: Can the bard song compare to the support possible via high level spells?

 

Earl Grey, you should write a faq or something about multi- and dualclassing. After reading your posts I can say no more which one is better choice.

But still some multiclass characters are weak, when compared to dualclassed ones. Especially fighter/druid. Their big disadvantage is that druids need 1,500,000 exp from level 14 to level 15, when druids get really strong. Multiclass fighter/druids will reach druid level 15 at 6,000,000 exp, but dualclass fighter/druid (9 levels of fighter) will reach druid level 15 in 3,250,000 exp points.

 

IMO, yes. Despite what comparisons you make between specialist M, multi F/M, and dual F/M, you cannot declare one or the other 'superior.' The higher HPs and fighter class items may be more valuable to some players than others. As far as Bards are concerned, I am admittedly no expert, so perhaps someone else could chime in here on their behalf. I have heard many bard players use their combat abilities to good effectiveness, and resourcefulness is a big part of playing a bard.

 

Indeed.
Is it just me, or is the only way to really figure out who's better out there is to do it PvP? After all, just about every kind of class out there can take over the game, so if we compare classes game-wise everybody wins.
Facts aren't also that helpful... What's weighs heavier on your opinion, for example? Low THAC0, or High HP? Grandmastery in weapons, Kit-based innates and bonuses or HLA's?
What's better in your opinion? The ability to cast more spells, or the ability to cast spells with much greater effectiveness, allbeit at a slower and more limited rate?

Anyhow, on the issue of Dual vs Multi, there are certain areas when Dual is supreme and where Multi also comes through by a longshot - aka Kensai-Mage for Dual and Cleric-Ranger for Multi.

Bards are an entirely different subject - but the most noteworthy of them - the Blade, can be a match to a mutli OR dual.

Take a Thi-23/Mag-18 vs a Bard-37.
------->
Okay then, consider the Blade.

HLA: Massive advantage to T/M
------->
T/M's gain LOTS of HLA so that wins them a place - but unfortunately when it comes to use, the range of different new tactics and god-prowess arrangements that the Blade and T/M can now use is what is really important here. Here, the Blade is exceptional, as the blend of fighter-thief-mage abilites, high levels and his own innate abilities give him a range that no T/M can ever hope to reach.
Pick your choice which you want, and which of which weighs more in your opinion - though all things considered, in this field T/M's and Blades are bitter rivals, and atm it is not known who will outdo the other.

Spells: Massive advantage to T/M
T/M's have truly LOTS of spells. Blades have absolutely BETTER spells. Versatility VS Intensity. Who will win?

Thieving ability: Massive advantage to T/M
Ehem... thieving abiltiy? Since when did thieving become so important in ToB? T/M's have a massive advantage here - only that thieving ability just doesn't count anymore.
Backstab is the main exception - which is made up for by a longshot by Blades. You can discuss all the other abilities if you want - but then, let me ask you. If you meet a full level, fully equipped and readied Kensai-Mage along your travels, will they actually matter?
Yes, there are no uber Kensai-Mages in the game, but this is a test of who is better, not which can do better in the game.

Combat ability: Umm... what are your warriors doing? [Wink]
------->
Actually Earl, this applies both to Blades and T/M's... though we'd rather not let Sarevok anywhere near our characters, do we?

Support ability: Can the bard song compare to the support possible via high level spells?
One won't... but what if there were more?
Anyhow, what's wrong with a low level spell that can do 200+ damage easy?

 

@Infarateo Gantul

For a warrior character the most important thing is without a doubt HLA's. (Btw, GM in weapons is unfortunately a joke.)

In what case can such a tradeoff be found?

Let's compare then (Kensai-13/Mage-28 vs Fighter-24/Mage-20):

# of attacks: equal
HP's: dual Kensai/Mage is better
Spells: dual Kensai/Mage is better
THAC0: multi Fighter/Mage is better
Saves: multi Fighter/Mage is better
HLA's: multi Fighter/Mage is better
Equipment: multi Fighter/Mage is better

Further analysis:
- HP's (Numbers might be slightly off here)
With max HP/HD on Ken/Mag has 117(+Con bonus), Fig/Mag has 92(+Con bonus)
Without max HP/HD on the average is for Ken/Mag 76(+Con bonus), for Fig/Mag it's 65(+Con bonus)

- Spells
Ken/Mag has 4*9th, 5*8th, 5*7th, 5*6th
Fig/Mag has 2*9th, 3*8th, 3*7th, 4*6th

- THAC0
Ken/Mag has base THAC0 8 (effectively 4 due to kit bonus)
Fig/Mag has base THAC0 0

- Saves
Ken/Mag: 5-5-6-5-6
Fig/Mag: 3-5-4-4-6

- HLA's
Ken/Mag starts gaining HLA at 4,250,000 xp while the Fig/Mag starts at 3,000,000 xp.
Ken/Mag: limited to Mage only HLA
Fig/Mag: both Fighter and Mage HLA

- Equipment
Ken/Mag is limited by: No missile weapon, no armor, no gauntlets, no bracers.

* Summary *
Where the Kensai/Mage truly misses out is on the Fighter HLA's. In ToB a warrior is not a warrior unless he has access to Greater Whirlwind.

My conclusion is that the Fig/Mag is clearly better than the Ken/Mag.


Concerning T/M and Blades
The Blade is geared for melee combat and I find this character suprisingly effective in SoA. In ToB however, melee combat is the arena where warriors, with their excellent HLA's and supreme base THAC0, rule. You could use the Blade or the T/M in melee, but if you do, wouldn't it have been better to choose a warrior type instead in that position?

About the 200+ damage spell - you need to reveal which spell you are talking about!

What are you talking about?
T/M gets to use 7th, 8th, 9th level spells as well as Quest level spells. Only with a few spells can you take advantage of levels over 20; Dispel Magic for example. Is Time Stop & Improved Alacrity not "intense" to you?

To be honest T/M and Blades are too different to be really comparable.


@Harkle
Yes, but druids are an exception with that odd 1.5 million jump.

@Drumheller
You are right, different players value different things. Myself I do not put much emphasis on high HP's. Let me restate my opinion that I think this kind of dual class (dual at a relatively low level) should be compared with single class characters, since their function is like that of a single class.

[ April 24, 2003, 15:38: Message edited by: Earl Grey ]

 

I finally get what you are talking about, Earl! Duelling a character IN ToB would be, IMHO, really dumb. But duelling them early in SoA and then playing through ToB, that can be really good; it gives you, basically, a single class character with a little extra punch (like I mentioned with Nalia and Imoen, especially.)

Now that I see we were kind of on different pages of conversation, I understand better.