Nationality vs. Ethnicity

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I came up with this topic idea based on some of the debate that was taking place in the UK Brothels thread.

Perhaps this is something that is unique to the Americas, but I find a strong differentiation taking place between ethnicity and nationality to be rather surprising. Now, like I said, being from America we may have a different attitude on things like this, seeing as how Native Americans now comprise less than 1% of the population. Therefore, virtually every American can trace their ethnicity to somewhere beyond the North American continent.

The type of social strife that takes place in America is usually more along racial lines than ethnic lines, but even that is much less than it was 30 or 40 years ago. There are three major groups in the U.S. that divide along racial lines. There are: 1.) Whites, who trace their ancestry to Europe, 2.) Blacks, who trace their ancestry to Africa, and 3.) Hispanics which trace their ancestry to some combination of Europe, Africa, and South/Central America (sometimes exclusively to one those listed, but more often to some combination).

However, we still consider ourselves and each other AMERICANS. I trace my ancestry to Europe, and more specifically Italy and Chekoslovakia. I'm just as American as someone who traces their ancestry to say, Ireland or England or Germany or Ethiopia or India or Pakistan or Japan or China or Brazil or where ever.

We are all bound together not just by a common geographical area, but also by a common culture, and by and large, a common language. These aspects that bind us together as a common people are generally considered much more important than where we were from initially.

Moreover, by now, most people are of mixed ethnicity. I only know of a handful of people who can trace their ancestry 100% back to a single country. For the most part, those few that fall into this category are also first generation Americans. By the time you've been here for a gneration or two, it is much more likely that you will marry someone who is of a different ethnicity than you are. The general rule is unless your parents were immigrants, you are much more likely to be of multiple ethnicities than a single ethnicity.

Finally, ethnicity is also not a topic that comes up in conversation - ever. I don't know the ethnicity of 99% of the people I work with. Granted, sometimes you can assume an ethnicity based on someone's surname, but like I said before, people now have mixed ethnicities. Therefore, judging what ethnicity someone is by their surname is usually only going to give you part of the story. Beecause of this mixing, ethnicity becomes almost meaningless. I can no more consider myself Italian than I consider myself Chekoslovakian, so why bother with the distinction? Am I both Italian and Slovak? Or, and more likely, because I'm both, am I actually neither?

Bottom line - virtually everyone who lives in America considers themsleves an American, and that one fact makes us all much more similar than where we are from originally makes us different. Ethnic pride and differentiation is something that only concerns a small percentage of us, and it is a distinction that is virtually never made.

 

And there's the big difference between you guys and us Europeans. I personally don't feel European at all, even though i am. I am in the first place Dutch, and most people feel overhere feel that way. We are closely related to Belgians and Germans, butt still we are quite different people, far from unified. That's why the dream that is the EU, modeled to the USA, doesn't stand much of a chance of becoming succesful in my opinion. There's too many differences, racial, as well as cultural, and nobody is going to give up their identity out of their own free will.

 

Yeah, but say someone who is Dutch moved to Begium. Say (s)he obtains legal citizenship in Belgium, learns the language and gets married. Is (s)he now Belgian, or still Dutch? What about if they have kids? Are they Belgian, Dutch, both, or neither? I would say that they are all Belgian, but from what you describe, you probably would consider the immigrant to still be Dutch.

I can't get over these distinctions, probably because I don't see them in my country. To me if you live in a country, work in that country, and speak that language, then that's your nationality, regardless of where you were born or where you can trace your heritage to.

 

AFI, I encounter many people every day who are very proud to hold onto ethnicity, no matter how tenuous those ties might be. How about people who come here and refuse to learn the language, clinging to the confines of ethnic-specific enclaves where one can live almost as one did back in the Old Country? What about immigrants from Africa who get a cold welcome from American-born blacks? What about people who proudly call themselves Italian even though they've never been out of South Philly?

Here in America, ethnicity has become a personality trait more than anything else. While these distinctions may fade when people are faced with large-scale issues, they definitely come into play in interpersonal encounters - sometimes as merely color, sometimes as prejudice. I'm sure ethnicity has economic impacts in the shape of the shops people choose to go to.

You can't take away someone's heritage just because they move. However, how important that heritage is is up to the individual.

 

I'm such a mixture that I couldn't even begin to think of ethnicity. My maternal grandmother was very proud of her Scotish/Welsh lineage. My maternal grandfather was primarily English/Norman-French and Native American. I also understand I have German and Irish genes(?). I have relatives who are Italian-American: others are Mexican & whatever. I guess I'm what is now commonly known as American, whatever that is. My country is the United States of American. If possible when filling out forms I even prefer to put 'other' as race.

 

Heh, my dad is Scottish, French, Polish, German, and like 3 other European countries I can't remember right now. My mom is Thai and Chinese.

My Grandmother's Nationality is pretty obscene and I didn't know she was a bigot until friday night-- friday night I had dinner at her house and she went on a rant about how immigrants were ruining the country for "americans" and that no one should live here except those who are already here. She then went on to say a lot of crap about Mexicans leaving their country for the U.S. and that they should stay over there, the stupid ******. I then pointed out to her that her parents did the exact same thing, her father was a Scottish immigrant and her mother a Polish immigrant and that she was a hypocrite for saying others shouldn't move to the U.S. and that she was "native". Hell, my mom left Thailand for the U.S., does that make her a bad person or a "ruiner of the country?" The ignorance of some people just makes me sick.

 

Suppose i'd move to Belgium, and marry a Belgian female, i guess i could obtain legal Belgian citizenship, and in the meantime keep my status as a Dutchman. So that would give me a double nationality, with two passports.

The same applies to any children that might be born, they are Belgian citizens by birth, but i guess they also can claim double nationalities, that's for the parents to decide i suppose.

Someone correct me if i'm wrong here though, because i'm not certain when it comes to children.

 

@ Pac man
The EU is not meant to make us into an USE. It's about unifying our voices – lending us an advantage when dealing with other nations that will inevitably rise to dominance, eclipsing the US. And a splintered Europe as well. Our cultural or ethnical diversity is no part of this union. Were that the case I would oppose it too.

Aldeth – Europeans are tribalists. One doesnt become a part of a tribe by moving in. In the eyes of the natives you are one of the bunch through birth only. Ethnicity and nationality are one and the same. Of course people from all over the world can get citizenship status. That means very little to most, though. They will always be guests, foreigners, not-from-here-folks. And they are made to feel it at every turn, although there mustnt be hostility. Not at all. A German in the Netherlands or Portugal? She/he may (or may not) be a part of the neighbourhood's social life, yet would always be 'the German'. Both sides, I think, would have it no other way. It takes at least a generation or so of 'interbreeding' to get watered down a bit. Hailing from a nation outside of Europe will make things even more tricky. Not to say hopeless. Hence immigration's miserable failure. I feel it will never work out right.

This new flair for multiculturalism on some people's agenda puts a lot of strain on all involved. I think it's something very few here can live up to. And who really wants to? I mean… how does someone from Ghana become German? Or French? Or...

 

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. Yes, there are definitely people in the U.S. that are proud of their ethnicity, and that hold on to many cultural traditions that were practiced in their country of origin. The point I was trying to make is in the U.S., most people put their nationality on a higher level than their ethnicity.

People that Rallymama describe certainly do exist, but they make up a very small sub-set of the population. My point was that for the vast majority of people, they are Americans first and (fill-in-the-blank ethnicity) second. My second point was that more and more people are becoming more like what Nakia describes - having multiple ethnicities, if not races.

My wife and I can serve as an adequate example of what I mean. Both my wife and I are racially white. However, our ethnicities are different. I'm Italian and Slovak, while she is Italian and Irish. That means our children will be Italian, Slovak and Irish. Say one of our kids marries someone who is Polish and German. Then our grandkids will be Italian, Irish, Slovak, Polish and German. Ethnicities in the U.S. get so mixed that at a certain point you have to question their relevance. At some point you just have to say that you are an American - and that's what most people do.

You don't get that in Europe, because chances are your nationality and ethnicity are the same. Typical Joe Italy (or perhaps Tony would be more appropriate) is someone who is not only born in Italy and speaks Italian, but every one of his anscestors from as far back as anyone can remember were also Italian. Chances are Tony marries an Italian woman, because well, if you're a man living in Italy, there's probably a better chance that you meet and marry a Italian woman more than any other nationality. So his nationality and ethnicity are both Italian.

My paternal grandmother was born in Italy, but at a young age she moved to the U.S. where she eventually met and married my grandfather, who was born in Chekoslovakia. Since they were both immigrants from Europe, there was a much higher chance of each of them marrying someone from a different ethnicity than they were.

I guess my point is that in the U.S. there is a much greater opportunity for ethncities to intermingle, which is perhaps why ethnicity is not nearly as important (again with the caveat of "most people") as nationality.

 

Wow...so many different bloodlines. If Americans were dogs, i guess that would make you bastards...a bunch of muds.

 

I'm British through and through, I don't think I can trace my ancestry back to anywhere apart from Britain. However, there are TONS of people in Britain who come from allover the place and have different cultures and lifestyles. We let anybody and everybody in here. For such a small country, we're massively over-populated.

We get a mixture here. If say, an Indian moves to Britain, from my experience they consider themselves Indians currently residing in Britain because of the better life etc. But then, a few of them consider themselves British. I suppose it all depends how long they've lived here.

In the end, I think it all depends on how long people live in a particular place and where they were brought up. I strongly doubt people, say, consider themselves Polish because some great-grand parent was from Poland. It don't think it works like that. If I moved the Australia, say, and lived there for the rest of the days, I'd still consider myself British. Ancestry doesn't come into it.

 

You're not THAT massively overpopulated Barmy, it could be worse. There's three times as many people in England than there are in Holland, but when you compare the size of both countries on a map, i'd say you have less reason to complain than we do. There's still large parts of countryside to be found where you live, while our soil on the other hand is almost completely concrete.

 

@Jiggajay
You have to temper the anger that you see in your Grandmother with the understanding that immigration has changed. If her parents immigrated from Scotland and Poland, they no doubt did so legally. They worked, paid taxes, contributed to social security, served as Jurists or perhaps even a Conscript. The bias she shows toward Mexican immigrants is due to the fact that the vast majority of them are here illegally. The only contribution they make to our society is to allegedly take jobs that citizens wouldn't. It's very easy to look at Mexican immigrants in a distasteful light when taken from the perspective that she has.

That being said, it doesn't make bigotry right, just easier to understand.

And to apply this toward the overall topic of this thread...I've never seen an ethnicity so reluctant to become 'American' as Mexican Americans. They cling to Spanish as the primary language, don't understand the currency of dollars...even proudly fly Mexican flags (devoid of the presence of a US flag). They are by far the fastest growing ethnic group in the United States and in effect are being catered to with accomodations in Spanish. I can't help but wonder if this sub-culture phenomena is going to be damaging to the American identity of "American first, [fill in the blank] second".

[ January 23, 2006, 23:30: Message edited by: Hacken Slash ]

 

Don't have time to read what has been said so far right now, so I will just put my two cents briefly.
From Russian language Russkii = true Russian. Rossyanin = Russian national. That summarizes my view 100%.

 

Most people here are not even native to Ireland. They can only be traced as far as the Celts, while the Sheltas (travellers) can be traced as far back as the Tuatha dé Danann, but there are only 30,000 left in Ireland however we all call ourselves 'Irish' no matter what our race is.

Regarding immigrants:

Dispite hosting large Indian, Nigerian and Chinese communities, I know of no-one that calls themselves African-Irish, Asian-Irish etc. We are simply proud to be Irish, not matter our ancestry.

I find it strange that American's say things such as "I'm Scottish, Welsh, Pakistani and German". Why not be simply American?

 

Because of the ever-amusing idea that America has no culture, or that the "pure", longer lived culture of ye olde native lande is somehow better than the polyglot amalgamation America has.

 

@ Barmy

Unless you're Welsh then you're unlikely to be truely "British". The vast majority of Britain will have descendents from main-land Europe - Romans, Celts, Normans, Saxons, & Vikings in the main. These invaded and pushed the Ancient Brits into Wales.

I have a strong national identity, and really little interest in ethnic background - doing so seems at best snobbery, and at worst racism. If someone believes they are British/English then I'm more than happy to accept that, but it probably takes 5 or 6 generations to reach this point when the difference between the cultural lines has blurred.

 

There is no such thing as a 'superior' culture, just different cultures. Everything has its advantages and disadvantages.

 

Although slightly off-topic, I feel I should mention that the European Union's unit was not planned to born by making people give up their identity, or by causing cultures to merge and become uniform. In fact, the opposite is strived for: form an economical (and ideally, a military & poltitical) unit while keeping the most beautiful feature: the colourfulness of the cultures and countries.
Of course any improvement will be hard as long as countries such as France ignore EU and bring things to naught just for own goals (the French peasant needs damn high agricultural endowment, we Europeans all remember this case from last year), and don't realise that on the long run they just isolate themselves, and it will be not good for them.

(S)he is what (s)he feels herself/himself. And what (s)he wishes to tell when (s)he is asked. A Belgian citizenship, but Dutch nationality unless (s)he decides to change it.
The kids' citizenship is Belgian, as for nationality, the parents choose something for the official documents, but the kids' nationality is what they will choose (or they parents choose, first, of course.)

Talking of ethnicities, an important phenomenon is the so-called assimilation. USA and the rich countries are a good example of it. Immigrants arrive, they have children, and even if both parents were from the same country, the children might still not be taught their mothertongue, and they will speak the language of the country they were born. It is a question of individual mentality as well (e.g. parents work so they don't have time/don't find it important to teach their children to their language), but it is generally true that ethnicities of poor countries reserve their culture and language for decades or longer time. An example: the Austrian hungarians (Burgenland) are much more assimilated, their number is small (also because few people tell that they're hungarian when asked by the Statistical Office), they don't really speak Hungarian. While in Rumania, the hungarians entirely kept their language AND culture. They didn't assimilate (just a really tiny bit of them).
For those who still don't get it, I'll make it clear with a perhaps too simplified example (but it summarizes the point): two parents from country x, with language x arrive to e.g. USA. They assimilate, they become Americans, and they don't teach language x to their children. Their children, and grandchildren etc. won't speak language x, and sooner or later the descendants will forget their roots.
As for those who don't assimilate, well even (for example)their great-grand-children will speak language x.
I was speaking about two people or families, but naturally the phenomenon must be examined in case of ethnic communities, and it is a more complex phenomenon than I just described.

 

This is kind of what I was getting at in my post. Part of the reason that people do this is, of course, ethnic pride. However, I think there is also a PC reason that they do so. Some people think that the only "Americans" are the native people of the continent. To me that's just silly. If you were born and live your life in America, you are an American on the simple basis of geography. Heck, if you trace it back far enough, we're all African.

We have a culture - we just don't have many nation-recognized traditions. The only tradition I'm aware of that is celebrated by everyone I know is Thanksgiving. Because we're a country of immigrants, we're a little light on the traditions (every family has traditions, but they vary from one family to another), but there is and always has been an American culture.

Yes, this is my point exactly. My ethnicity is Italian and Slovak. However, since I've never been to either Italy or Slovakia, do not know anyone who lives there, and can't speak Italian or Slovak, am I really Italian or Slovak? I would not be able to adequately function in a Slovak or Italian society, and thus it is IMO silly for me to consider myself Slovak or Italian.

Hack's point about Mexican-Americans is relevant here as well. Mexican-Americans CAN function in their native country. In fact, it could be argued that they can function better there than they can here. I do not understand why it is required for virtually every form you fill out to be written in both Spanish and English. I think it's horrific that we have American schools that teach in Spanish to cater to the Mexican-American population. I would like to think that education serves many functions, and one of those functions would be to assist these people integrate into society. By letting them have all their classes in Spanish, I don't think we're doing them any favors.