Need a 6th party member!

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I started a new party a few days ago and I don't know what to do with my last character that I plan to add around the ice temple. I don't mind over-multiclassed powergaming-characters but he/she has to be of a short race (dwarf, gnome or halfling). I don't know if I'm going to play HOF, but someone that's not totally worthless there is a bonus.

My party so far is:

DG high-AC decoy, thief (rogue1/monk1/illusionistX and will soon have more classes... like jukkas old arcane decoy)

Gray dwarf fighter1/dreadmasterX Tank, Primary healer, backup buffer, debuffer, nuker... (I modified the gray dwarf with dalekeeper and added some not so useful feats and a small elemental resistance to make the only really underpowered race a little bit more balanced, but even my upgraded gray dwarf race seems a bit underpowered)

DG rogue1/illusionistX debuffer, backup nuker, backup decoy in normal mode, thief... (will soon get a level of dreadmaster or monk to obtain other spell classes)

"Drow" sorcX primary nuker, leader, buffer (Actually a goblin breeded by drows. Gave him the look of a green skinned gnome for pure RP-reasons. He has a long background story....)

They are soon meeting their friend:
Ghostwise Halfling Barbarian1/druidX (backup healer, tank, buffer, nuker...)

I have some thoughts on how the last char might look like:
Halfling or rock gnome bardX/sorcY (might need some level squatting to avoid xp-penalties.)

halfling rogueX/bardY (don't need more thieving skills but pure bards are quite booring in this game...

Deep gnome High-AC ClericX/monk1/rogue1 (the last 2 levels added late in HOF if I play that)

maybe some kind of bard/druid/ranger or something.

Anyone with any good ideas?? He don't really have a specific role to fill since I have backups on everything but I always think more chars is more fun and too many backups is never wrong.

 

My first thought would be not to bother with a sixth character at all, but if you insist on having one for 'fun' purposes, how about one of the little used cleric domains, like Lorekeeper of Oghma. In a six man party that might go to HoF, having two characters who can cast Cleric spells would be reasonably useful.

The other thing is that you have no paladins, so maybe some sort of suicidal Gnomish paladin who can make use of Cera Sumat.

 

Lore Keepers of Oghma has WoB as 9th level domain spells an thus are overpowered. I can expect this from Talosians, but Oghma? Oh my!

 

Lorekeepers are perhaps the best clerics in the game! You can choose between WoB and Executioners Eyes, giving you the choice of the nasty spellcaster (also has Great Shout and Power Word spells), or nasty tank.
In addition, when it comes to a multi-classed character to maximze your AC, the Lorekeeper is one of 4 orders that can be both Monk and Druid.

In terms of one particular thing, the Lorekeeper is not the best.
For example, both Watcher of Helm and Dreadmaster of Bane can also be a Monk/Druid, with an AC boost through either Helm's Watch or the Bane Quest; it is a tossup between Lorekeepers and Stormlords for attacking potency.
ON AVERAGE (capitals for emphasis), the Lorekeepers are the best. Incidentally, the Silverstars of Selune are the worst...

 

How can I specialize a cleric to make him different from the first? Which orders would be the best?

I'm also thinking of bard11-13/cleric17-19 or cleric17/druid13 but both will have to level up the two classes at the same time to avoid xp-penalties which could make them useless for a long time.
Don't know if there are any fun druid-spells left for my second druid since there aren't too many good choices per spell level.

Maybe a halfling bard11/sorc19 could be fun (the last sorc lvls squatted), but also there I need to level up the two classes at the same time. At least the sorc could specialize in buffing or something to make it easier for the other casters, but are there enough different spells per level for 4 arcane casters?

What could I multiclass a bard with to make it useful in my party?

 

I also believe Lorekeepers are the best clerics in the game for my own reasons - which includes the fact that they have among the best selection of domain spells in the game(note that all their domain spells are the last resort spells that would have made several battles *much easier* but to which we simply can't give slots for the sake of show-stoppers like Recitation/whatnot) and the powerful high LvL domain spells. (WoB and EE? You've got to be kidding)

If you think pure Bards are boring, make a Bard with Specialization in Two-Handed Axes, go for a pure-buff/summon spell selection, get feats like Dirty Fighting, Lingering Song and Power Attack and reserve those Spell Focus feats for late game. Get the Widow-Through, have Luck on and try to have Tymora's Melody on as much as possible. When you run out of buffs/summons to select, *then* start working on enchantments or whatnot.
Bards of this type will change the way you define "overpowered".
Oh, and make it a Drow.

The best Bards are the pure ones and the Fighter1/BardX ones.

 

Never thought that the lorekeeper would be that popular. I just read the domain spell lists and he seems to be really good - one of the 4 really powerful domains (lathander, Talos and Bane being the other 3). Don't like the other 5 domains after watching their domain spells.

@Scythesong Immortal
How can a bard be so powerful? A cleric will have 2 more HP/lvl and can minimize cha, making the other stats better. They also have good buffs and can use my arcane casters for stoneskins.
The character must be halfling, gnome or dwarf so how would I allocate the ability points for such a char?

BTW I avoid summoning spells for RP-reasons (My party is on an adventure, not my party and their undead legion and hordes of animals and creatures).
Letting any of my evil casters summon a single undead from time to time is as far as I can go.

 

First off we know that Bards have the same BaB progression as clerics, so we know that with a few buffs it can potentially be made into a decent meat grinder.
Second Bards have access to arcane buffs, so we know we're not gonna burden another class with buffs for his sake. He'll still need the more powerful arcane buffs (like Stoneskin, and maybe a Bless or Prayer) like any other character though - but at least he'll have his own supply of Hastes, Mirror Images, Armor when the main caster can't spare any more slots at low levels.
Third the Bard class is unique the same way clerics are in that despite their potential fighting prowess their casting level remains dependent on their Bard/Cleric level. Arcane Bard spells which depend heavily on casting level include Shades, Shadow Conjuration - most of which are summoning spells.
Fourth, and most importantly, Bards have access to the Bard songs(or simply an unlimited supply of AoE buffs and one disable).

Now we know that Bards have low HP and will have to depend on several stats to maximize efficiency.
Strength will have to be 15 at the very least - odd so we can at least benefit from a good casting of Bull/Champion's Strength.
Dex will need to be 13 to get Dirty Fighting - there's no other reason why this character's Dex is above 10.
Con will need to be 10 at the very least - a Con of 14 will serve us best, though.
Int can be minimized since the only skill this character really needs is Concentration.
Wisdom can be anything we want.
Finally Char should at least be 16.
With a halfling, gnome or dwarf, then, his stats would look like this: (min-maxed)
Str 15-17
Dex 13
Con 14
Int min
Wis 10
Char 18
If you don't like to min-max, it would look something like this:
Str 17
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Char 16

Now to the disadvantages of this particular Bard build.
First off, people who often play Bards like to have high int for it to be able to allocate enough points in other skills resulting in poorer stats in Str, Dex or Con. Now unless we pick a Human, which is inferior to the Drow - the best race for this particular build (if only for the Spell Resistance) - we'll have to lower those other stats a LOT. This renders the build ineffective, so if you want a utility-type Bard, this build won't work for you.
Second this Bard will not be focusing on offensive spells until very late in the game - so people who like to have an offensive spell selection for their Bards will find this build lacking.
Lastly, this Bard will need several buffs to be recast on it every few hours - so people who don't like spending daily "ritual" time won't be enjoying this build pretty much.

Now as for the advantages of this build.

Melee-wise this build was designed to maximize the Bard Song Tymora's Melody (more so than any other song, though you can play those too if you want) which grants a solid +1 bonus to luck, and a few bonuses to rogue skills and saving throws.
Luck effect functions like a bonus to just about any roll we do - from hit rolls and critical rolls to saving throws. By using Tymora's Melody in conjunction with such simple buffs as Bull's Strength and Luck (although we can toss in other Arcane and Divine buffs during major battles, with Executioner's Eyes working wonders at very high levels); feats like Power Attack (maximizes damage), Improved Critical(to keep those coming) and Dirty Fighting; and Proficiency in Axes (the best weapons for for characters who love criticals - in particular, the Widow-Through is indispensable to this character at mid-game) we get a character who can potentially spam criticals(and these *will* hurt a lot) every few seconds when well-buffed, and who probably not fail to make a few in any given encounter. As the game progresses, though, it won't be safe for this character to go near enemies anymore even with Mirror Image and the attack range of Great Axes - which makes Throwing Axes (and a particular Throwing Great Axe comes to mind) a next best choice of weapons.

Arcane-wise, this build mostly has a buffing spells at low spell levels, summoning spells at mid spell levels (Shades and Shadow Conjuration among them), and one of best nukes in the game - Wail of Banshee - at high spell levels; with a few scattered Enchantment and Evocation spells to round off spell selection. To maximize the effect of these spells we'll need the Spell Focus Feats (and Luck - but we have that particular area covered).

Support-wise, any Bard can simply play a Bard song and instantly grant bonuses to all nearby allies- whether a summoned creature or party member- which is why summons can play a key role when a Bard is present. While a Bard does have one offensive song, the Siren's Yearning, it's not that effective since enemies almost always tend to make a save against it.

All in all, this build offers a Warrior-Mage type char who can dominate combat by spamming criticals, summoning powerful creatures, casting a few key spells and relying on his Bard Song.
You'll need to test out the char for yourself, though, if only to see if the build works for you. It's harder to describe these things in writing.

BTW I avoid summoning spells for RP-reasons (My party is on an adventure, not my party and their undead legion and hordes of animals and creatures).
The Bard summons are of the illusionary sort, with the exception of Shadows (which is strange) and the Djinns/Efreeti. These summons typically don't last very long (unless you play through HoF), remaining only for a single battle or encounter at least. Bards also get the bulk of their summoning spells only at high levels (so you're on your own at low-mid levels).

 

I never played a fighting-bard in this game (only bard/sorc and a rogue-like pure archer-bard), so I better try one.

I think it will be a halfling bard11/cleric18/barbarian1
The barbarian level is because I won't gain much if I take another bard-lvl (1 lvl4-spell +1 to all saves) or 1 cleric-lvl (spells in lvl 5, 7 and 9, but lvl 7 is only good for good-aligned clerics with holy word and lvl 9 cleric is worthless for me since I don't use summons). The barbarian lvl at least gives me a little speed, one not so useful rage, +2 fort save, some HP and, most important, proficiency with all weapons.
the last cleric-lvls can be squatted.

The bard don't have too many useful high-lvl spells and my other characters have them all.
The cleric-part will be either lorekeeper or stormlord.

The tactics you (Scythesong) said about the bard is what I had planned for my fighter/cleric (with the throwing 2-hander axe) and my barb/druid, but I think a 3rd of their kind might be useful so I think the stats will look somethong like this:

str:13-15 (to do some damage with throwing weapons)
dex:13-14 (for rapid shot and maybe dirty fighting)
con:14-16 (important with not too much HP/lvl as bard)
int:3 (concentration is enough)
wis: 18 (will be maximized for extra spells)
cha: 13 (can cast the lvl4 spell with a wolf hat)

[ July 28, 2006, 11:37: Message edited by: Mudde ]