Neocons - losing it AND the peace?

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Winning wars and gaining victory is one thing, but maintaining that status is another one. In afganistan the US first empowerd competitors to the puppet-president they sent over there. Smart move.
Then the neocons went to Iraq in the hope to take over a functioning gvt. That failed too, as the iraqi ministries "evaporated" over the looting. Now they were left without a clue and that's a sure receipe for disaster. Besides, everyone ever heared of a US exit-strategy? Or a real buildup-plan?

The US troops aren't prepared for the job as an occupation force. Inadept at coping with cultural differences occupation forces insult locals in house searches. The language barrier only is the smallest problem.
The iraqis were taking offence in having their houses, sleeping rooms and even their weman searched with dogs - impure animals for islam. Well, dogs have a very good sense of scent and are a useful tool to detect weapons and explosives. But then: Why not pigs? They are even better sniffers*!
US heavy-handedness is driving the people away from them. Lack of understanding of cultural differences only adds to the difficulties.

Reconstruiction is slow, commitment moderate and the money granted isn't spent. The US gvt is loosing time - and when they loose the peace all the money spent for the engagement in this afganistan and iraq will be lost.

As for Afganistan:
- http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/080503A.shtml
and for Iraq:
- http://www.msnbc.com/news/948864.asp?0cv=CB10
- http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0805-09.htm (from renowned pentagon basher Hackworth - with at least a grain of salt)
and as for neocon leadership style:
- http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/printstory.hts/editorial/outlook/2023830

The neocons led their president into this mess.

The neocons only understand war. The have dealt with planning for the cold war, making their (inaccurate) doomsday prophecies about soviet planning and intentions. They manipulated regional conflicts in the middle east (Rummy and Perle for example) and latin america (take Negroponte who led the effort to destabilise Nicaragua). All the time they were plotting coercion of others to obey to US interest (as they saw it) from secure and distant offices. They don't understand what the soldiers do, and frankly, they give a rats ass, eventually soldiers are volunteers (making them expendable - they know what they do, right?) and they are their political leaders. They understand and like power, and they use their power.

They don't understand peace. They know how to break things, but not how to fix them. What great a prospect to see the reconstruction effort for Iraq in the hands of the pentagon then

The US would be better off without the neocons, but then, whould would be left for Bush to ask what to do next? Considering this, it may be time for regime change in washington as well.

* Sidenote: German customs used a few pigs for drug searches with outstanding sucess - they were only much more difficult to train than dogs ...

[ August 10, 2003, 16:22: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

The key word there is 'interim'. That government that was established in Afghanistan was simply a temporary thing that will be removed once the Afghans elect new leaders in. We have no desire to establish a dictatorship or an occupation there. The troops are to keep the peace until Afghanistan gets back on its feet.

As to the US ineptitude for rebuilding nations, we rebuilt Japan and helped out a good portion of Europe at the end of WW2. I wouldn't call either of those a failure.

I would assume that you didn't see the reports about the Iraqis celebrating upon the removal of Saddam from office. I would also not call that a failure.

That report that you link to makes it sound like the solution is sending over another few hundred thousand men to resolve the problem. We're not heartless enough to keep our soldiers away from their families on peacekeeping missions for years.

Your own general says that there's not much else that can be done to keep the peace.

 

Actually, in the "Case For Foreign Intervention" thread in the Alley, Ragusa provided this link which I think fits here very nicely as well.

 

There is always a way to keep peace or better yet to bring peace when you invade a foreign country (no matter what the reasons are).

Respect the local population, his ethics, his needs, his culture.
That is the mistake US troops are repeating in Iraq, they did this in Afganistan too. How can you expect to earn the respect of someone if you treat him like a savage?
He won't respect you because there are no more savages in this world. Every nation, every tribe has a culture and that is a crucial fact. If you don't respect this, they won't respect you. They will defy or worse attack you anyway they can

 

It was so much easier to invade someone in the good old days. All you had to do was kill all the men and boys. Then you gave the land and all the women to your soldiers.

 

Yeah, the average 20 year old soldier is going to be educated in the intricacies of every culture in the world, and be trained to deal with them respectfully.

Is that how it is in Greece? How about Germany (the land of the gentle soldier)?

 

How can you respect the local population if you're being sniped at all the time ?

 

Well, given that supposedly one of the functions of these kinds of military actions is to rebuild the society, it seems to me that, if billions of dollars and many other resources are being spent, spending a little bit more on educating the soldiers on the culture of the nation they are invading would be a good idea in order to help to avoid doing a half-assed job.

 

This is where idealism and reality collide. So before invading any country, all of the military personnel need to take courses on cross-cultural sensitivity?!?
Right.....

Meanwhile, back in reality...

 

Well, that's the whole problem. The reality is that these kinds of actions have, for the most part, been totally mishandled by a bunch of blowhards who seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude.

I'm not suggesting that the soldiers need to take a college degree in the subject, but how hard would it really be to have them spend a few hours learning some of the more important customs and cultures of the society that they are supposedly trying to rebuild? I would think it would be a lot easier to get the cooperation of the locals if there was some respect paid and acknowledgement given to their customs.

 

So what exactly is your problem, Splunge? The use of dogs? Too bad. If you don't want to be searched, then give up the bad guys and the weapons. Otherwise, shut up and be searched. This is a military operation, not Mr. Rogers Neighborhood.

This entire thread is ridiculous. Soldiers are dying everyday, and you are criticizing them for not respecting the culture of the people killing them. What color is the sky in your world?

Just curious, what is the enlightened, idealistic neo-lib solution to this? (Answering not invading in the first place is not an answer, but an evasion).
Or are you (Splunge, Ragusa, Mith...) like all the rest of the neo-libs, lots of criticisms, no solutions?

 

@ Jack Funk - actually, I was speaking in general terms, and not addressing Iraq specifically; it’s a bit early in the process to be discussing any successes and failures of the attempts to rebuild this country. But since you seem to want to focus on Iraq, I will offer a few comments:

When one nation unilaterally decides to invade another nation, and without the support of the vast majority of the other nations of the world (not to mention the significant opposition from within the invading nation itself), “not invading” is exactly the right answer.

As for “soldiers dying everyday”, well for crying out loud, what did you expect? This demonstrates perfectly the problem with these kinds of operations and with the attitudes of the invading forces. If the citizens of the countries being invaded truly believed that they were actually going to be better off as a result of the invasion, then presumably they would welcome the invaders with open arms. But history has shown over and over again that things don’t improve (see the link in my first post), and often generally speaking (and particularly with Iraq) there is an overall impression that the invading forces are interested only in their own agenda and don’t give a damn about actually rebuilding the country they’ve destroyed. Whether that impression is accurate or not, the lack of cultural awareness only serves to further reinforce it.

 

Don't put words in my mouth. You misinterperet my post to make a platform for an off topic speech. Nice try at the end though.

The losses are not a surprise. In fact, I am surprised that they are not more severe.

Meanwhile, back on topic:
@Ragusa, et. al.
You set unrealistic expectations and then complain when they are not met.
And Splunge, you still haven't answered my question, what is your solution to the problem? How would the military, as run by you, handle this situation?

 

Before this goes any further, I would like to clarify something, and this is totally off-topic. I don't want anyone to get the false impression that I don't like the U.S. or Americans. I have previously stated my objections to the occasional perceived "U.S. bashing" on these Boards in that there has been a tendancy to belabor certain points, and I continue to stand by those objections. However, I don't think the issue I have tried to address falls into the "belabored" category. Off-topic commentary ended.

Maybe I misunderstood the point of your post; if so, I apologize. It certainly isn't my intent to put words into your mouth (although I'm not really sure what words you think I was putting into your mouth).

What is off-topic here? Yes, Ragusa goes into his regular "U.S. is bad" commentary, but one of the main points of this topic is the lack of cultural awareness, and that is mainly what I wanted to address here. I took a bit of a diversion (well OK, a big diversion) to address some of your points, but you brought them up (again, if I misunderstood your post, I apologize). So, continuing on that vein:

One expectation that I have is that the U.S. would respect the international community and not take action without its concurrence. So my resultant complaints are absolutely consistent with my expectations. And the other expectation I have involves spending a few hours on cultural education, which can hardly be considered "unrealistic".

I have answered your question, but you refuse to listen. The military, as run by me, would not be in this situation in the first place. When a nation decides to act unilaterally, don't come crying to the rest of us when things don't work out quite the way you wanted them to.

[ August 08, 2003, 05:10: Message edited by: Splunge ]

 

But the military is in it now, and you continue to bash the actions while not even giving your oh so great and holy solution

 

Jack: Where is the problem in teaching the soldiers about culture and tradition?

Just look at what the average iraqi sees:
The US-soldiers are invading the country, killing civilians using napalm and cluster bombs and expecting respect from the local population?
The administrators in Iraq have been not able to maintain a stable water and power service, and they are expecting respect?
The US-soldiers treat civilians with disrespect, for example making fun of the women in pretending to see through their clothes with night-vision-goggles, and what do they expect?
Tell me, would you respect people with such behavior?
Respect is earned, not given freely. Sure, that counts for both sides. But, I ask you: who started the mistreatment? Perhaps, this question is childish, but did the US-soldiers expect that all iraqis would welcome them smiling, with flowers in their hands?

Wait, they were expecting this, weren't they? Because they were told it would be like this. Or because they told it themselves. Well, who is far from reality now?

EDIT: Ragusa, pigs are to moslems equally unclean as dogs. Just a reminder. Bad example.

[ August 11, 2003, 14:00: Message edited by: Fabius Maximus ]

 

The US armed forces could have benefited from better general Peace keeping training. This is not specific to the country at hand, rather a general education in how to deal with people as you walk around with guns and ask them to trust you.

Different skills are needed to win a war and then keep the peace. The former appear better trained than the latter.

 

@ Jack Funk yes that is how we are trained. To do to others as we want them to do to us. And in our country army is obligatory not voluntary. Most of the youth (much above 50%) are well educated (university), which means they have a level of understanding rather good.

Not lessons but at least learn what is culturally correct in the invaded country. And i feel sorry, but from what is happening here in Greece in Chania were the USA has a base i tend to believe that many people in USA are behaving like savages towards other nationalities. They seem to have the attidude "i'm superior so you will do whatever i want" and again i want to stress out that i do not refer to all USA citizens just some of them.
How is it possible that in every UN mission that Greece participated the Greeks never encountered problems with the native population; Is it because we are so feared; I think not, we respect the natives and their way of lives that is the answer.

This is not a military operation as your president said it is a liberation operation and that does not need bullish tacticts it needs more diplomacy and discretion tyhan the one they are using.

That is what we don't want either and the only thing we can do is point out what we see as a mistake.

 

@Mith...

Yeah. Right. Your military is trained in the intricacies of every culture in the world. Whatever.

As far as the behaviour of the U.S. military in Greece, you are off-topic. They are not an occupying force there and is not getting shot at everyday. I think that representatives of the U.S. military behave poorly at bases around the world. They are people, and sometimes people don't do the right thing. But this is off topic and could be addressed in another thread.

Really? It's not a military operation? Then why is the military involved? Why are American soldiers being killed everyday? When that stops the searches will be unnecessary, until then they have to continue. BTW, how do you use diplomacy with a sniper?

Ragusas point was built around the problem the Iraqis had with the use of dogs in searching. I feel that this is ridiculous. That is what I meant by unrealistic expectations.

Splunge, et. al., I am still waiting. What is your solution to the problem that Ragusa illustrated? Do you have any solutions? Or just criticisms?

 

@ Morgoth

Well, that’s the whole problem. I don’t have an ideal solution, because I wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place. The U.S. and Britain have created this mess, so any solution is going to be less than optimal. The rest of the world has expressed its willingness to assist in the rebuilding, and I think such participation would be beneficial in order to give some credibility to the effort. And yes, some cultural awareness training would be useful.

As for as your “oh so great and holy solution” crack, there’s no need to be sarcastic here. I make no pretence of having all the answers. The Alley is here for free and open debate of various issues. I can disagree with you, and you can disagree with me, but let’s not let this discussion degenerate into name-calling. If it was restricted only to “experts” on the various issues, I doubt there would be too many members qualified to post.

@ Jack Funk

Thank you for clarifying this; I took your objections to be of a more general nature, and not limited to dogs. However, with all due respect, I think Ragusa’s post was about more than that, and it is the bigger picture that I was addressing; I took the example of dogs to be just that – an example. If this whole post is only about using dogs in searches, then I absolutely agree with your earlier comment – the topic is ridiculous. But if it’s about the broader issue of cultural awareness (which I think it is), then I believe it’s worth discussing.

As for my “solution” (such as it is), please see my response to Morgoth above.