Neverwinter Nights Forum News (Nov. 1, 04)

Remove all ads!

Here are today's Neverwinter Nights forum highlights, collected by NWVault. Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.

Georg Zoeller, Designer

Live Connection Idea, Boo...hiss!
The deal is "buy this module, knowning that it uses the master server to verify your CDKey just like multiplayer works" or don't. The "power of whining" will not help you here, because we made this decision knowingly that there would be some people who would not be interested the modules because of that. While we are interested in investigating other means of protection for the modules in the future, should DD be successful, we have no plans for immediate changes to this system. If the modules don't look good for you because you don't like the way we are protecting them, then please, skip them. We don't sell modules without the protection, they are part of the product you purchase and if this part doesn't appeal to you, then you should not buy the product..

More:

---

Well there you go!... you just said it yourself, Checking "EVERYTIME" that you are the owner of the module which basicaly comes to asking permission everytime you either start the module or load a saved game.

---

Yes that's how it works, just like multiplayer mode. As with any software, you don't own the softare, you own a license to use it according to the terms of said license - which you will be able to see before you buy it. If you can't live with the conditions of the license, you should not buy the product.

More:

---

and a total let down of a good part of the community.

---

We are aware that the way we do those modules is not appealing to a part of the community. We knew that beforehand. We know that by not offering localized version from the start, we are shutting out a part of our market and we know that online verificiation does the same for people who are "not connected" or not open to this approach. And yes, in a way I just told you that you are probably not among the people we established as initial market for this project - which doesn't mean we are not interested in expanding this initial market later on.

More: I am inclined to agree to you that software licenses can be quite complicated, like any other contract you make in real life (even when renting a DVD). But that's not really the question in this thread, so feel free to open a new thread about this topic so this one doesn't get dragged even more offtopic.

More:

---

And George, Calling this debate whining is as bad as calling a negative truth a Flame. Bioware as no excuse to use that type of security, the one used before with CDKEY once works just fine.

---

a) The word whining was put in quotes because I was quoting Althernai's post from above. I might be blunt sometimes, but I'm not interested in flamewars just now.

b) We don't make excuses and we don't need to. We tell you what we are doing before hand, which is - we use the same method we used in NWN multiplayer for 2 years now to protect these modules. If you don't like that, then tell us (you are doing that, good) and don't buy them.

More:

---

Georg, is my style of play so unusual that players of a similar bent wouldn't have been factored into the decision?

---

I don't find it unusual at all, in fact it's quite close to the way I play. The difference between us is however that I'm on an always on connection I guess.

More:

---

Hey Georg you might be a designer but you are obviously showing a lack of intelligence / business sense. The whole point of designing a game is to get people to BUY it. Bioware should be listening to its end users and actually pay attention. You guys need to tone down the ego factor and realize that the reason you still have jobs is because of people like me and my friends who buy your games. After putting out 1 dismal expansion and 1 ok one you ought to be paying a LOT of attention to what we are saying.

There is NO reason why someone who is sitting at home playing solo and not using any MP should ever have to get on the 'net to check a cd key. Your game has been hacked by many people and I understand that you want to protect your hard work but how about thinking of those of us who did buy the game. Tone down the ego and listen a little more, you'll do better.

---

Wohoo, the "lack of intelligence card", I was wondering who would bring that up - but educated people usually avoid it as it tends to reflect poorly on themselves. Ah well, but thanks for the quick lessons in game design.

I think you misundestood my post ... it makes perfect sense to do calculations like

a) sell x modules with copy protection a on a potential market of v customers at a cost of m

b) or sell y modules with copy protection b on a potential market of k customers at a cost of n

and decide for a even if v is lower than k because m is lower than n. In the end it comes down to a (not so simple) risk vs. cost vs. return analysis.

You see, a common response when posting things like this is "oh my god, this is so blunt" ... the truth is blunt, but I'm not a friend of packaging it into sweet flowery words - because I think you deserve to know how things are rather than living in a dream world.

Of course it's not nice to have someone tell you "We knew that some people would come up with this complaint and we decided to go ahead with this anyway because we believe doing it this way will yield better results", but do you really want me to tell you "Ah, yea sure, sorry, we wanted to do it but could because of [put bad excuse here]".

I've seen many people preaching doom on Windows XP because of it's activation scheme and I've seen all the rants and hate Valve got on their boards when they came up with Steam. Guess what - Windows XP has penetrated the market just fine and Steam seems to ok as well. If you want to innovate, you have to take a couple of (controlled) risks and must be willing to target niche markets (i.e. people who have broadband connections).

---

There is NO reason why someone who is sitting at home playing solo and not using any MP should ever have to get on the 'net to check a cd key.

---

Wrong. There is a simple reason, and that is that it is an excellent low cost and already tested method to protect our modules without extensive modifications without to the game while still allowing people to make backups. Low cost is important as it allows us to sell the modules at a low price point since we don't have to pay licensing cost to other companies. That's the reason - you can agree with it or not, that's your thing, but it is there.

We sell these modules to everyone who is willing to buy them with this system - if you are barred from that because you i.e. don't have an internet connection, then you are not the current market. Think of it like a system requirement - if you don't meet them, you are not the market. Same type of discussion.

---

After putting out 1 dismal expansion and 1 ok one you ought to be paying a LOT of attention to what we are saying.

---

What your personal opinion on NWN's successful expansion has to do with this, I really want to know. If it's " I didn't like your expansions, so I don't think you have the right to tell me what you think, because I'm a customer and king you know, and reading the your motivations for a certain decision is offending me", then I don't think you are the target audience for my posts anyway. I believe that most people here appreciate that we come clean on things like copy protection beforehand rather than playing stupid games with them later on.

More:

---

1. You really don't care what the consumer thinks
2. You would rather shrink the market instead of aiming your product at ALL those who would be interested over something so small as online key verification (realize we are not complaining about copy protection)
3. When consumers who have been loyal to your company complain you say thanks then tell them not to buy your product and call that coming clean (see #1)

---

First, thanks for the thoughtful response, I appreciate these kinds of post - much better than some of the rather amusing posts about evil greedy corporations we've had here lately.

I think there you have a wrong impression, however

1. We do care, people who played Hordes saw a lot of things the people on our boards and the community as a whole asked for, from certain content to a story style more in line with BioWare's previous games. Same goes for games currently in development, we opened up the board for DA quite a while "early" for todays standards to get input from the people we care about.

There is a difference between "not caring" and "making a business decision knowing that it will upset some potential customers". If we wouldn't care, we wouldn't be posting here and we wouldn't have these boards in their current form.

2. You are right on this one, we rather aim for a smaller market for starters to test a new venture with controlled risks and cost. We are however, and Derek has indicated that, interested in expanding the market by i.e. by researching different copy protection methods if the market we see for these modules indeed meets our expectations.

3. I don't think I said that. It is unfortunate that we can't start this project with full localization / ability to play offline, but it's a neccessary evil (from our point of view). If that means that we intially exclude people who previously buyed our products, we are not happy about it, but to tell you that we didn't know this before making this decision would be a lie. Obviously we expected some negative feedback from the people who feel excluded by this decision - and I see no point in hiding this fact.

Maybe the "they don't care" impression comes from the fact are a bit more open than many other companies when it comes to discussing topics like this and people are more used to reading PR sweettalk than real answers.

This whole thing is really not much different from the discussions that go on when you try to settle on the minimum specs of a game -

Do we limit the game to "graphic cards X" so we can use AweSomeShaders 4.0?

X % of the market don't have graphics card X, so they are left in the cold but Y% of the potential market are more likely to buy your game if you have AweSome graphics. And maybe a feature you can add if you use AweSomeShaders 4.0 will give you more sales than you lose people that don't have a required graphics card...

In the end a lot of numbers are thrown around, lot's of market research is done and then a decision is made in favour of the solution that you think is the best and you know that you will have people posting on your boards that they are unhappy with this as they won't be able to play the game.

More:

---

As for CD-Keys, of course they are not the end all be all of protection. There is no such thing as a perfect copy protection (see attached link). But the cd-key protection is what they used for the game and it doesn't seem to make sense to give the impression that this is not good enough now when it was for the game.

---

Actually, NWN uses SecuRom protection (cd needed in drive) in addition to requiring a CDKey for installation and CDKey verification for online play. A lot of people seem to complain about SecuRom all the time, so we certainly didn't want to do something along these lines, so reusing the CDKey verification we use for online play already for 2 years now for these modules is a method that has been well tested already and does not require us to completely rewrite the game or limit the customer in their ability to backup them modules. Plus we don't need to shell out a huge pile of cash to license other technology, which means we are able to sell the modules at a more competitive price.

More:

---

I realize you've gone for a very limited market for your initial offering here, from the technology sense; ie strongly oriented towards:
- broadband (cuts out large portions of the world)
- credit card (cuts out a good hunk of the younger crowd)
- Single-Player (cuts out the multi-player contingent)

---

Need to pull that straight.

- broadband: no, it's rather people who have always on internet or don't mind needing an internet connections when starting a new game / loading a savegame. We specifically created "lite" versions of the larger modules for the non broadband crowd.

- credit card: Yeah. The majority of north american internet connected adults has a credit card and we currently don't offer localized versions.

There are other solutions (such as master card / visa cash cards) that probably work plus we got the gift code system. We will investigate other options as the store expands.

- single player: not strictly, WW is multiplayer capable, Kingmaker and Shadowguard are however, just like HotU, singleplayer campaigns. We are looking into multiplayer specific modules in the future.

We are starting the store off with 3 modules, but more content is already in the works.

Additional Content For These Mods!

---

Don't count on it. new voice overs music and sound is the only thing they are adding as well as a new story. Don't expect to see new armor monsters, tilesets etc. it's not gonna happen.

---

If I were you, I wouldn't be so loud saying that - I know that the Live team is looking into a lot of different things right now, and all of the things you mentioned are quite possible, especially if the initial project is a success and we see that the market is there. Same goes for portraits, spells or other content. I'm not promising "there will be a new tileset", but I think it's a good idea to make clear that we are very interested to add different kind of content to these modules, and potentially to patches for everyone further down the line. And as far as "interested" goes, I think they are already looking into some of that stuff for the next batch of modules that is in development.

Refund on Product?

---

Anyway, the point is, there are some people for whom 56k ends up being either the only option, or the only option that provides reasonable service. Sadly, it doesn't look like the Internet industry will change in any good direction for this situation :/ In some areas, such as where I live, cable is fine, but in other areas, there will be people who cannot get DSL without having to up and move, and whose local cable ISP is not a good one ...

---

I know what you are talking about and I completely understand where you are comping from. I had to settle with expensive dial up ISDN for years in Germany, because I happened to live 100 yards above the max range for a DSL line and the local telco's were not really interested in delivering broadband outside of the big cities... Granted, ISDN is a bit better than 56k, but compared to the other options around, it's still crappy. Now, however, keep in mind that while this is unfair, that is still no reason for BioWare to settle to the lowest common denominator - as you can clearly see, this project imposeses certain requirements on the interested buyer, which are the same as NWN multiplayer - you need an internet connection to play. Look at Valve's steam - you can't really look at it without being hooked up on broadband (well ok, you could probably), but apparently there are enough people to make this viable. What I'm saying is that we can't let ourself be limited by the fact that technology adaption is slow in certain areas - if anything, maybe more companies doing something like this will cause more pressure on the appropriate telco's to roll out broadband to their customers. Of course we know that if we make certain requirements, we limit our target market, and we are making our calculations with this in mind - but that's what we do all the time, i.e. when discussing the minimum requirements for a game.

This is what we wanted right?

---

What bioware doesn't seem to get is that it is not story nor sound nor music that or even voice overs that make a game good, it is charachter customization is what makes a game good.

---

I see, that's why KotOR sold so well, right? I would say this has nothing to do with Bioware not "getting it" We are, at this point, pretty much about "story is the most important aspect", a lot of other things are important, but they are not going to save your game if the story sucks and people don't enjoy it. This doesn't mean that customization is not important, it very well is, but there are quite a few games out there that sold way less than any of BioWare's games and have a lot more character customization options... For me, it just doesn't cut it that I can look like the coolest character ever - if I have to endure hours of bad VO, a mediocre story that makes me want to sleep, etc.

Great idea but just a tad TOO expensive

---

Evil tree guy I never said the price was too high I said I don't see the point to creating these module when a company like bioware has enough money to add new content but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case here.

Sure I know how expensive it is to make software. Did I say that software was cheap. No I didn't so come off it will you.

---

PS - Rich, I just took your post as an anchor point to get of this rant I wanted to make anyway, so please don't take "you" in this post as pointed to yourself, it's pointed to any potential reader here.

You see, BioWare's financial situation has no place in this discussion anyway - we are a business, not a charity, which means that decisions made at BioWare are always made with money in mind. Shocking? I don't think so.

Even if we create something "for free" (as in free for the community), like continual patches or modules, we do this because we expect a profit from that later on - which can be a happy and loyal community that will be more likely to buy our next product ("I'm buying BioWare games because I know they support their products, offer patches and occasionally new content" or "I'll certainly look into Dragon Age, because BioWare cares for their product and community").

If we didn't operate like this, we would not only be violating the most basic rule of a "business" (create revenue), we would also be "out of business" in no time.

This has nothing to do with greed, nothing to do with "cheating people out of their money", it's just plain obeying the laws of the market. I think our track record shows that we are not the kind of company that is after the quick buck as in "release a game and don't care for it later" and that we really care for what our community and customers wants - but that doesn't make us a charity, giving away free goodies to the end of time just because we could afford it (which we can't). We do believe that if you give your customers good value for their money, they will be more inclined to come back - which is why we have chosen a very reasonable price point for these modules, a bargain if you know their production cost.

Bottomline: I'm baffled by posts like "Don't you see - they just want your money" and "Modules want to be free", as these exhibit a disturbing amount of ignorance to how the global market works - people should not be allowed to leave school without this basic knowledge. Maybe it's really just people who haven't hit those classes in school yet (I can forgive that )) .

"BioWare want's your cash" ... of course, after all, that's why you run a store in the first place.
"BioWare just wants your cash" ... false and shortsighted - we also want satisfied and happy customers/community members so they come back for more / our upcoming products. Shocked about this? Well, back to school then.

---

I would much rather play a module that has new monsters to fight and tile sets and as much charachter customization as possible that is what makes a game fun. sure I like a good story or catchy music just like the other person But i am more in favore of customization.

---

We know that, and we are working on that - if all works out, a lot more new content than Music, VO and Portraits will be featured in premium modules. And from a short sighted point of view, bundling special new content exclusively with the modules (such as expansion packs) could probably give use better sales on them, but it would kill off the community by introducing another level of splitting ("i.e. you can't join this server because you don't own kingmaker"). That's why the system Rob opted for is to showcase new content, which can even include new tilesets, in premium modules, and make some of this content (if it makes sense) available to everyone through a patch later, so the whole community, even the people who don't buy the premium modules, get to benefit from it (and maybe decide to get some of the modules to see it in action).

I personally think that you greatly underestimate the power of good VO / music - maybe you would think differently after playing the Witch's Wake: Remastered Module with it - I played both the old version and the remastered version, and it makes hell of a difference for me

Just Premium Modules?
Our plan was not to make new content downloadable but rather use it to add wow factor Premium modules and later see if we can pass it to the whole community with a patch to avoid fragmentation (i.e. you can only play on that server if you bought X,Y,Z) issues.

Does Bioware now own BG1 & BG2? Could Premium modules in principle be...

---

I'm sure Bioware could make modules set in the Baldur's Gate area if they wanted to, as it's part of the Forgotten Realms setting.

---

"Baldurs Gate" is it's own interlectual property - and BioWare doesn't own it, sorry.

Altaris (Lone Wolf series) did ShadowGuard!!

---

---

I admit that the Lone Wolf modules are not perfect, but then again these were released early in NWN life. Lone Wolf 2 was released in November 2002 a mere 5 months after Neverwinter Nights originally launched in June 2002.

---

Actually I hadn't noticed that but you are quite correct. That they work at all two years on is a remarkable achievement. Guess I am going to have eat my words ... can someone pass the salt?

---

here you go Yea, I have to defend LW here ... compared to most modules in the same timeframe it was released, it was pretty amazing. Keep in mind that a lot of the cool stuff for module creation was added in later patches such as cutscene functionality, database, etc.