Neverwinter Nights Forum Update

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(Originally posted by Darien)

Greg Zeschuk, Joint CEO:

Toolset and Release Date: Well guys, I hate to break it to you but we don't have a super secret release date that we only disclose to magazine editors. We have been aiming for the upcoming Winter (year unspecified) and this has not changed. In some cases magazines will make their best estimate on release dates - I can't speculate where PC Gamer got the date March 2002 - you'll have to ask them.

On the issue of the tools, a few people hit the nail on the head by stating they only work with the data intact, and that we want to polish them for public release. While the toolset doesn't have the click and crash interface of our ancient toolsets it isn't currently at the level of usability we need for a public release. We are aiming to have the best game development toolset ever here and we aren't willing to cut corners. We are using the same tools internally (and we're going to open source our modules), but we want the public to use the final version of the tools. They are a work in process that we're focusing on right now.

One final point - While Ray and I are Joint CEOs at BioWare, we also are co-executive producers. We need to be intimately involved in the development of our products so we can lend assistance to Trent, Derek, Alan and the rest of the crew whenever we can. As they guys mention, we are game players and we are playing NWN to make sure it can be the best game possible.

Sometimes it can be frustrating when there is a lack of information flowing, but rest assured if we aren't talking it's because we're working on all of our games.

3D Models and Tiles: Making tiles for NWN is an extremely complicated and technical process - in general we have to do specific coding and we need to be very careful how we build the tiles in order for them to work correctly. I doubt many people except for professional game developers will be able to make tiles (but we do hope for many fans to prove us wrong on this point).

For characters, monsters, and other objects the process is more straightforward (and existing templates can be used as a base). We do all of our work in 3D Studio Max which is quite a costly 3D program - we are going to explore some other alternatives down the road for the fans....

Mods using Toolset: The toolset is really versatile - I've been playing around with it lately and it's extremely impressive just what can be done from a scripting and customization perspective. It does have its limits however - NWN is shipping with standard fantasy-style background tiles and characters and it is far from a trival process to modify these in any way. If you do want to make a Dragonball Z module it will need to use the existing art and rules the game comes with - though take heart, I think we have a number of characters heads with loopy hairdos like those found in the show.

Trent Oster, Producer:

Hit Points: We are implementing two ways of rolling Hit Points. The first is to get exactly what you rolled, no if's and's or but's. The second way is similar, but characters cannot get below 1/2 the max. This mode will be the default and should reduce the chances of characters sucking without the re-load re-roll loop we've all learned to love in CRPG's.

25 Points Point Buy: I agree with CRPG's cutting the player less slack, but 25 points make a pretty solid character. When you get attributes as you advance it makes for pretty impressive high level characters.

Where Will BioWare Play NWN?: After NWN ships I will sleep as much as possible. When not sleeping I will be spending a great deal of time searching out interesting servers and playing. I'm looking forward to checking out a number of the persistent worlds projects and getting involved in a campaign or two. We've got a good amount of work left, but when this game is done it will be well worth the effort.

Rob Bartel, Co-Lead Designer:

WOTC Neverwinter Storybook: Yup. It's a collection of short stories, actually, echoing more of what you'll be doing as mod creators than what we're working on with the official campaign. I did a teeny bit of preliminary editing for the book and got to read through each of them (there's even one about our favorite elven paladin of Tyr in there!).

The good thing about it being a short story collection is that reading through it in advance won't spoil the actual game for you at all.

The Fallen Tower: We've got it in there, alright, and I love all of the secret stuff that they discuss in Volo's Guide. Originally we had intended to delve into that a little bit but we ended up not having the available art time to do the falling phantoms that it's famous for. That said, there are still some dark dealings and strange things going on inside.

There are strange things done, 'neath the midnight sun...

Derek French, Assistant Producer:

Toolset and Release Date: The Toolset has been in use for over a year. And it still isn't finished, and probably won't be until right before ship.

(Ed. note: In regards to the release date anounced by PC Gamer): They made it up. They can state any release date they want, however there is still no Official Release Date as per the post in the Official Announcement forum.

Most likely, we will go from "no release date" to "its Gold" and nothing in between.

DMs Can Pause-in-Play: Hehehehe, I always enjoy how not replying to every single thread is considered "dancing"

Yes, the DM can pause the game and interact with the world with scripts, NPCs, PCs, examining, spawning, etc. You cannot physically change the environment such as changing tiles or other Toolset specific things. The specifics have not been fully worked out yet, but as DM you will end up with a great deal of control.

After all, you are the DM.

Game Release on DVD: The release format of the game is completely up to our publisher, Black Isle/Interplay.

I cannot comment on whether or not they desire a DVD version of the game at this time. The other issue is that despite the popularity of DVD drives, their install base is still not that broad.

David Chan, Audio Producer:

Up to Date CEOs: Actually, Greg and Ray are very up to date and involved in Neverwinter, they play builds of the game whenever they can. They are hands on CEOs, because they like games and still play on a regular basis. As a matter of fact much of the hallway chatter between Greg, Ray and the rest of us is about the latest games we've been playing. They're not afraid to get in and get their hands dirty, which is one of the reasons I like working here.

Toolset Use: Actually, the Toolset wouldn't be much use for creating modules without the data (tilesets, creatures, sounds, etc) to go with it. Even if it was released today there is a very limited amount that could be done without the data.

Jonathan Epp, Quality Assurance:

QA Testing Software: We do of course use programs for bug-tracking, but it sounds like your more interested in whether we use automated testing tools and the like. We have thought about it and we have also done some research into it. So far we have not been able to find a tool that will satisfy our needs. It's one thing to use these tools for standard Windows apps, but a game is a whole different issue as they often behave in unusual ways compared to a normal app.

Also, let's say we want to test items. The process for testing each item may be very similar, but there are usually variations in how to properly test each one, so doing it 'manually' is often a better way of doing a thorough job. But if you know of a product that you think we may find useful, feel free to mention it and we can take a look at it to see if it would help us or not.

Items Giving Light: I should let you guys know that it is possible to have an item give off light (other than torches). For example, in a little module that the designers had put together there was a quarterstaff that gave off an orange glow. It was a fair bit dimmer than the torch, but it was a lot better than nothing. I'm not sure what kind of variations are possible with this (as in the amount and colour of light), as I haven't had a chance to play with it myself, but things like this are possible. I should also add that I have no idea what will be available in the official campaign.

Bob McCabe, Writing & Design:

Music Composer: I've been voting for Mike Patton all along. Seriously, if I had the money to put a game together and I needed to work on the music, my first call would be for Patton.

Game Needs Alignments: I am not evil. Maybe a little anarchist, but not evil.

This is a response to that old quote about the slavers. There are some good points here (and in the follow-up posts), but there are still too many conditionals. What if the paladin is from another land, what if the peasant is being mistreated. None of that was in the prior example (though it is in the BG2 game).

I'm saying that a slave is being escorted from one site to another. He is properly nourished, but he is still the property of the state. And the local laws are the ones that the paladin calls right. He agreed to them, down to the last letter, before becoming a paladin.

Obviously, we need alignment to some level in Neverwinter Nights because of classes like the paladin. But all I have ever said is that I would feel a lot more comfortable with alignment in the game if we could guarantee that every game would be run by a live DM who could properly adjudicate any affects on alignment. Otherwise, we're left with situations where we have to create more black and white debates - or paladins that free slaves from "evil" townsfolk, because of how they perceive lawful and good, are going to be mighty upset when they lose their paladin status.

More on Alignments: Er - that was actually what I was trying to say, though I substituted "law of the land" for "personal code of ethics." Still, if a paladin's personal code is either completely or partially separate from the "law of the land", then how could that not then be confused with chaotic good? How would you define a chaotic good character? The most common answer I have heard to answer that question is "Robin Hood"... is it in reality someone who goes against their personal beliefs for the good of the land?

Testing 30 Point Points Buy: *plugs his ears* I'm not listening, I'm not listening.

Yes, I am very biased. I like 25-point buy. I don't want to hear the arguments FOR anything else, unless it's for a number less than 25 I am trying to stay very close-minded on this topic. Maybe I'll change my vote to 3d6, no re-rolls, and no stat placing... hmm...

1d2? Hmm... that's a decent idea... I think I'll go suggest it to the team.

Seriously, it isn't that I dislike having a character with a particularly potent stat - I dislike the notion that, in order to have a decent character, you need to have three stats around 16-18. With a high allowance of points, players are going to continue to think that their characters are not good enough unless they have those numbers. Either that, or you'll get something just as ugly: a character who is good at everything (straight 12s, for example).

In honesty, I know this gripe is a result of the skewed way that I view the rule set. I tend to see commoners and such as having stats around 6-10 (using the 3rd edition bonuses and penalties), and adventurers having stats around 8-12; adventurers are the exceptional ones - the heroes - that are capable of making a difference. Still, even adventurers (or commoners) wouldn't have all of their stats at that average level. One or two of their stats would breach the ranks. Rare specimens might see one or two stats truly exceed those values; but most people, especially those rare specimens, would generally see a few of their stats drop below that normal range. I guess I like characters like this because it encourages partying up - just like the different classes, imbalanced characters need other imbalanced characters to become balanced.

Before playing through Icewind Dale, I was told that I would need to make 4 fighters and make sure that they all had 18 scores in strength and constitution. So, to see if it was true, I made a party with only one fighter, and none of the party had a prereq. higher than 14 - but I did make characters whose skills complemented each other; I was well into Chapter 3 before I got too busy to continue playing, and I don't remember having to reload many battles.

I've argued against point-buy before because it somewhat eliminates any weaknesses in a character (by starting characters out with all 8s), but overall, I do like it; it forces you to really strategize over where to place that slim allotment of points, and you still end up with a situation where you need to find other exceptional characters to balance the areas where you are not exceptional.

I just want to see the numbers kept low - 25 points.

(Fan Quote: "Like drippts and elminister? How many points do they have?")
Don't get me started! I think Drizzt could have been a fine character without the uber stats. Same with Wulfgar, Elminster, and all of the rest of them. It does disappoint me to some degree that the DMG states that 32 points is recommended for heroes of the Forgotten Realms, but then doesn't really stay true to that.

(Fan Quote: "Bob, Heh, heh. Of course, I was just joking about 1d2. No need to do anything rash.")
Tee hee I know you were just kidding, so don't worry - I won't do anything rash Like I said, I like my heroes to be heroic. I just have a different scale for what heroic means, and a different view of how heroic, across the board, a heroic character should be. Straight 1d2s might be possible, but it probably would not be very fun.

(Fan Quote: "I agree that 25 is plenty. People who want more seem to forget that a 12 in 2E is not as good as a 12 in 3E; and that in 2E your stats didn't increase every few levels. 25 is more than enough for a 1st level adventurer.")
I agree, too. As Dayln said on page one, you don't need such high stats in 3rd edition. In 2nd edition, high stats are, to some degree, more important, because you often are not gaining bonuses for stats unless they are fairly high. In addition, I believe for most classes you needed at least a 16 in your prereqs. That doesn't even exist in 3rd edition, which seems to suggest that they want people playing with lower stats, but they don't seem to follow through in later manuals.

I think one of our {BioWare} problems, though, is that Baldur's Gate was played by so many people, and in that game you were role-playing the child of a god; you had high stats, but they were more justified. In Neverwinter Nights, you're playing a normal-but-heroic character. Those high stats are no longer justified, but people are used to seeing such powerful machines, and will expect to see it in Neverwinter Nights.

(Fan Quote: "Still, I consider the difference between 25 and 32 point buy to be largely cosmetic. Whatever ends up in NwN, to me it doesn't seem worthy of all this debate.")
But - but - ... then what will we talk about? 25 Versus the World has been a topic of discussion for like - a year now! If you just end it - where would I go? What would I do? First you destroy my logic, then you take away my habit; you are evil!

(Fan Quote: "Personally, we are in favor of a 72 point allocation with no minimums and no sliding scale.")
Sometimes the simple answer is the best one, I guess. Why add all of the complications into the mix? Of course, we're still left with a debatable number.

As for this debate, I think the only solution, and one I have used ever since I witnessed it in use on a MUD, is to keep stats behind the scenes. Players should be given a basic list of stats and told which are better than others, comparitive only to themselves.

i.e. "You have the most confidence in your wisdom, though your strength is exceptional as well; of course, you've never been known as anything other than a klutz. Your other abilities are not exceptional from the norm."

- or -

"While you have long been known as the most brilliant mind in the city you grew up in, you have rarely been known to even reach the levels of the normal man in any other area - excepting charisma, which often makes you a target of adoring men and women alike."

In this way, you can still have stats, and you can still feel good about your character. Of course, you might have the equivalent of a 20-point buy character, while another character could be closer to 35 points; when it's behind the scenes, you don't really know, or care.

On a side note, I also tried doing this with magic items. I would describe how a weapon, for example, looked or felt in combat, and leave the rest to combat rolls that the player never saw. I had one character find a +3 battleaxe that he left behind because he liked a +1 long sword better. He tried using both, but always seemed to roll higher (for "to hit" and "damage" rolls) when he used the +1 long sword, and so he felt that the weapon was just *better* all around (Or maybe I just described the swings of the long sword with more excitement). And never knowing it as a +1 weapon versus a +3 weapon, he created his own image of the weapon, named it, and so forth.

But I'm getting way off topic here; I'll think I'll stop here.

Still, if everyone is equally heroic... if the world is filled with Conan's and Drizzt's and Raistlin's... how does anyone feel "special"? The fact is, all of these players are normal adventurers, but just like professional athletes are likely physically more capable than the rest of us, adventurers are likely more capable at adventuring than commoners. In addition, I didn't say a 12 was the height of a greatness, either But I do think a 16 is pretty extraordinary.

(Fan Quote: "There is a difference between everyone and every player character. In D&D, adventurers are supposed to be rare... not the norm. Not that it matters.")
Right. Adventurers are supposed to be rare, and every (player) character should be above the norm. The point I was feably making is that you cannot have two tiers of adventurers - the elite super heroes and the not-quite-perfect- but-they-manage-to-overcome-the-odds heroes, at the same time because most people won't want to play the lower tier. And if everyone is playing the upper tier, then all you are really comparing yourself to is the non-adventurers. And if you are already better than them, why do you need to be night-and-day better than them?

I like Loghan's point here, though: noble heroes step up from the ranks of everyman to make their mark - exceptional enough to both stand up and succeed - but still having roots in everyman. Good point

I agree on the thing with tiers... I'm playing a bard in a pen and paper game. Not only a bard, but a halfling bard with a -2 on strength who refuses to use missile weapons, a bard with tons of skill points that, every level, get funneled into knowledge skills that will never help our party in combat, and a bard who is selfish about the way that she chooses her spells, choosing spells such as Identify over Magic Missile. And who knows, maybe one day she'll be the one to save the party when the big grunts can't get it done. In a pen and paper game, that's fun. It's understood that you're there to act out a role and enjoy motivations and so forth. In a CRPG, you're dealing with a ladder. You ascend the ladder, you never falter, and when you get to the top, you hop down and climb another ladder. How many people lost their paladin status in BG1 and reloaded? How many people had a character get permanently killed and reloaded? How many people reloaded because they accidentally chose the conversation path that didn't get them the 30,000 XP bonus? How many people reloaded because they answered a question in character, but were eliminated from undergoing a quest as a result?

CRPGs are just different. But then again, that's why I am excited about NWN. It isn't pen and paper, but it's a lot closer, and hopefully, I'll find some people out there who are more interested in playing stories, and not just climbing ladders.

(Fan Quote: "How many people reloaded because of rediculously hard traps or ambushes where it's practically impossible to survive without knowing what will come?")
Haha! Touche Uxs. But that's part of the balancing required on a game that allows you to reload over-and-over again.