1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

New Immigration Law

Discussion in 'Alley of Lingering Sighs' started by Aldeth the Foppish Idiot, Apr 6, 2006.

  1. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Story is here.

    After reading the article this has to be the most powerfully short-sighted piece of legislation I've seen in a while.

    It breaks down like this:

    If you are an illegal immigrant from Mexico, what happens to you depends on how long you've lived in the U.S. illegally.

    A. If you've been here for 5 or more years, you don't have to go back to Mexico. You can stay here, apply for a temporary work permit, and get on the fast track for U.S. citizenship.

    B. If you've been here for at least 2 years, but less than 5, you have to go back to Mexico, but only until you fill out your immigration and temporary work permit papers, at which point you will be immediately re-admitted into the country, and get on the fast track for U.S. citizenship.

    C. If you've been here for less then 2 years, you have to go back to Mexico, and get back in line with everyone else.

    Now, maybe I'm being naive, but I'm assuming if you're here illegally, there's no documentation as to how long you've been here. Therefore, how are we going to tell who is telling the truth about how long they have been here, and who is lying? If we just take people's word for it, everyone is going to say they have been living in the U.S. for more than 5 years. And neither the illegal immigrants nor the government is gonig to have any type of documentation to say otherwise.

    Also, it should be pointed out that the majority of America's 11 million illegal Mexican immigrants have been here for more than 5 years. It is estimated that the number of illegal immigrants entering the country over the past 5 years has been rather steady, at approximately 500,000 per year. That means we have 1 million who have been here less than 2 years, another 1.5 million who have been here 2-5 years, with the remaining 8.5 million being here 5 years or more.
     
  2. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,415
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    232
    Gender:
    Male
    Mexico is not singled out here, it is anyone who is not a legal immigrant whatever their country of origin happens to be. Granted, most of the illegal immigrants are probably from Mexico.

    I would imagine documenting appoximately how long you've been in the country wouldn't be too difficult. They had to be living somewhere, and many of them work.
     
  3. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Right. It's not immigrants in general, just the ones that are here illegally. I'm certain we have illegal immigrants in this country from all over the place, but Mexicans I would imagine have to be 90% of them. With 500,000 illegal Mexican immigrants coming in every year, that probably far surpasses what we get from all other countries combined.

    You see, that's another problem I see with it. What typically happens is one or two members of a family come over first, find some place to live, and set up jobs for other family members to come over. So person A may have been here for five years, but persons D, E, F, and G have only been here for one year, but they still look like they've been here for five. Plus, many of these people are also employed illegally, working for less than minimum wage, so good luck documenting that too.

    EDIT: It looks like this might all be moot, as it now appears that the vote may not go through afterall. Of course, seeing as how it appears that only BTA and myself have any interest in this topic whatsoever, it may be moot regardless.

    [ April 07, 2006, 17:58: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]
     
  4. Nakia

    Nakia The night is mine Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    5,575
    Media:
    102
    Likes Received:
    136
    Gender:
    Female
    So much for Bipartisanship: See here

    I'm interested but had no comment.
     
  5. Kitrax

    Kitrax Pantaloons are supposed to go where!?!?

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    7,899
    Media:
    74
    Likes Received:
    96
    Gender:
    Male
    Protests and boycotts across America today! :banana:

    The perfect day to go shopping at WalMart...if the place is still open today, it's going to be a total ghost town! :p

    Seriously though, I'm all for folks who go about getting their citizenship *legally*...but those millions and millions who don't shouldn't get a break. The fact is, they broke the law the second they hoped the fence, or when their temporary visa expired. :nono:

    The funny thing is, at all these protests, the INS could find the millions of illegal, and undocumented immigrants that they obviously have forgotten about...and then once this is all over, those people will once again be forgotten about. When they *should* be bring the law down on them... :skeptic:

    And don't give me that crap that America was founded by immigrants...In my mind, the BS all you folks are trying to pull on the second amendment (gun rights), applies to this: It no longer applies to this time!

    So the bottom line is:
    • If you use the time given by a temporary visa to apply and get citizenship...GREAT! Welcome! :thumb:
    • If you're here illegally, for whatever reason, get in line! The INS has been looking for you...and I'm sure President Fox would *love* to have his taxable citizens back! :wave:
    • Oh, and don’t mess with gun laws! :p
     
  6. kuemper Gems: 31/31
    Latest gem: Rogue Stone


    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    8,926
    Likes Received:
    8
    Actually, immigrants can use Title XIX (Medicaid) as proof.

    As an immigrant (to Canada), I find this legislation insulting. WTF is the big hurry to get this passed into legality? Illegal immigrants have been living off the government dime for centuries with barely a repercussion. Why change the 'let's go to the U.S. and have a baby so we can get benefits' scam and the wonderful work of document fraud? :shake: :rolleyes:
     
  7. Saber

    Saber A revolution without dancing is not worth having! Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2004
    Messages:
    4,905
    Likes Received:
    47
    Gender:
    Male
    If you are here illegally without a really good cause (as in, your government is trying to kill you: I interviewed a man who had to escape from Kenya because he printed something that the government didn't like, so they tried to kill him. He is legal now), then get out. Get in line, become legal, and get your citizenship.
     
  8. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    If we're really concerned with illegal immigration, the obvious way to stem the tide is to, oh, I dunno, help Mexico become an acceptable place for ye olde commoners to live.

    They'll stop coming here when they stop having reason to leave there.

    Not that I think them coming here is a bad thing, mind; I'm all for legalizing all the immigrants who are presently here illegally anyway. Look at it this way: we'll get to tax them.
     
  9. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,117
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    I am pretty sure you are already taxing them whether they are there legally or not?
     
  10. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    The issue isn't whether or not we can tax them, it's that they'll work for below minimum wage. That's the point that everyone seems to be missing, and passing immigrant legislation fails to address as well. Wouldn't it make more sense to go after companies and businesses that HIRE illegal immigrants rather than trying to target the immigrants themselves?
     
  11. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    1
    Sabre I don't think you realize how much illegal immigrants contribute to your countries economy.

    Who else is going to pick your fruit, look after your children, sweep your floors? They do the jobs you don't want to do. The reason why you pay 'low-low' prices is because of illegal labour'.

    I watched an anti-immigrant demonstration on the news a few days ago and a guy on a megaphone was preaching "You don't know what diseases they be bringin' here!"

    BTW whats the name of that (legal) vigilante group that is patrolling the desert looking out for illegal immigrants? I don't like the sound of those people.
     
  12. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    That statement needs to be qualified. American citizens will pick fruit in scorching summer heat, look after children, clean bathrooms, etc., but they won't do it for $2/hour.
     
  13. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    The obvious problem is, without being able to pay a salary way below average, the plantation where fruits should be picked in scorching heat will have to be shut down. The fruits than sold will be an import from mexico.

    It's a competeve world. An if someone does a better job for less money... that's the way it goes. The next step is, that companies will move to Mexico.

    Step 1 -> Fill the factories with immigrants
    Step 2 -> Move the factories to the homeland of the immigrants

    In a liberal society perfomance counts, not citizenship. Citizenship shouldn't be a feudalistic privilege.
     
  14. AMaster Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2000
    Messages:
    2,495
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    50
    Nope. Well, maybe sales tax, but nothing more than that; they're not about to file income taxes, and their employers aren't about to report the wages they're being paid, so...
     
  15. Kitrax

    Kitrax Pantaloons are supposed to go where!?!?

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    7,899
    Media:
    74
    Likes Received:
    96
    Gender:
    Male
    Oh please, this past Monday they tried that, "a day without immigrants" boycott...so I went to WalMart to pick up some Mt. Dew, and I was expecting the place to be a ghost town as I mentioned in my first post in this thread...but it wasn't! The place was packed just like usual...so I left and went to the local grocery store instead. Sure a few fast food restaurants closed for the day, but big deal.

    Where's the sign up sheet for the local 'Minute Men' organization? :thumb: :rolling:
    Hmm...
    #1: *legal* immigrants will. Or folks in other countries will. I ate an apple today…and the sticker on it said it was from Argentina. :bad:
    #2: If I had any kids, I wouldn't be dumb enough to just leave them in the care of someone who isn't licensed by state government saying they (and their facilities) are suitable for child care! My mom had an in-home daycare and pre-school for over 25 years. I grew up with it, I know the deal, and I know that leaving your kids with some undocumented stranger is the stupidest thing you could do.
    #3: Once again, *legal* immigrants will. Oddly enough, the janitorial staff at my work is more white than Mexican. Actually, there are more white and Asian people at my work than any other race...and we are on the "production line"...in career terms, that's one step up from a janitor's job. :skeptic:

    Bottom line is, if there jobs to be had, there are plenty of *legal* immigrants to fill those jobs. :thumb: :rolling:
     
  16. Cúchulainn Gems: 28/31
    Latest gem: Star Sapphire


    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    1
    Illegal immigrants do not take your job, they are simply willing to work harder and for less money. For this you should be greatful.
     
  17. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    In a free market that statement is true. However, there is a minimum wage law on the books. What these companies and businesses are doing is illegal. You're supposed to pay people at least minimum wage (in this case $5.15 per hour). Illegal immigrants are a problem, but the businesses that hire illegal immigrants knowingly, and then pay them below minimum wage are part of the problem too, and no one is addressing that. If we crack down on the people who hire illegals, and fine them heavily, they will be less likely to hire illegal immigrants, which in turn will make fewer illegal immigrants try and cross the border if they know it is unlikely they will find work.
     
  18. Iago Gems: 24/31
    Latest gem: Water Opal


    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, citizenship and nations are the anathema to a free market, just like minimum wage, or in other words, they may be restrictions to a free market like frontiers, but they are made obsolete by marktet forces at work.

    The political problem is the reluctuance of politicans to talk tacheles, renforced by the strange us-political habits of never telling anything like it is and rely on elusiveness.

    The problem: The economy, i.e. the enterprises, need theses workers to sustain themselves. It's not only about profit, I bet great many of these companies need those foreign workers to survive.

    The awkard thing is, that those workers are illiegal. That's the fault of the US law. An obvious need of the economy for cheap foreign labour has to be followed by an adequate legislation.

    Or at least there are two contradicting wants and needs.

    A: The want of some US-America to not have a Latin-American immigration.

    B: The dependence of the US economy and it's companies on Latin-American immigration.

    My view: Because in the US, talking straight is such a no-no thing to do, this two problems were not correctly formulated and according meseasures have not been taken and that's why the "illegal" immigration crisis exists.

    And a stop of immigration is no possible option. If it's factually possible, I don't know. But creating a political will to stop immigration is impossible, because about 50% of all enterprises will fight for their right to hire foreigners.
    Bah, it is and was the same tune all over the world and certainly in Europe.
     
  19. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

    Joined:
    May 15, 2003
    Messages:
    12,434
    Media:
    46
    Likes Received:
    250
    Gender:
    Male
    Iago, your idioms never cease to confuse me. What does "talk tacheles" mean?

    I don't know anyone who actually wants to stop all immigration from Latin America. Face it: In the U.S. unless you happen to be of Native American decent, you are either A.) An immigrant or B.) Decendent from immigrants. The U.S. was built upon the premise of immigration, and even today, the U.S. accepts more legal immigrants into its borders than all other nations on the face of the earth. So I certainly don't think many people have a problem with immigration as something they want to see stopped. At least I certainly don't.

    The U.S. economy is not dependent on Latin America immigrants, legal or not. I can't find the source that I read last night, but it is estimated that only 5% of the U.S. economy is based on immigrant labor. 5% is significant but it's not going to cause the U.S. economy to grind to a halt. In fact, according to the report there are only two industries that would significantly impacted by deporting all illegal immigrants: textiles and agriculture that relies on migrant workers.

    Moreover, there is a cost to the public of having illegals within your borders. Not so much with the adults, but their children. The adults are providing a benefit to society by working for low wages that keeps the costs of goods and services down, but their kids go to school, yet they don't pay school taxes. The report stated that the average person living in California is paying $1,200 more in state and local taxes than they receive in services, a large part of those taxes go to education, and California has the largest population of illegals in the country. The good news is that illegal immigrants do not harm Social Security in any meaningful way, because most illegals aren't seniors.
     
  20. Fabius Maximus Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Messages:
    1,103
    Likes Received:
    3
    You can try to fine companies hiring illegal immigrants, but you also have to have a way to enforce this law. I don't know if the cost for finding offending firms offset the benefits.

    [ May 04, 2006, 01:00: Message edited by: Taluntain ]
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.