NPC Debating Thread

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Ah yes...after countless hours of arguing about the lack-of-suckiness of any and all BG2 NPCs, I've decided to start a thread. It keeps it organized. I can point blasphemers here in my next argument. There's more time to think and more space to write stuff.

Sooo. Yes. Claim that any joinable NPC from BG2 or ToB sucks, or compare them with another and say that one is obviously better, and I'll try my best to defend them.

 

Ah yes, I expected you.

First...let's look at stats (according to the guide on SP, going in Str - Dex - Con - Int - Wis - Chr order)

Cernd
13
9
13
12
18
15
Total: 80

Jaheira
15
17
17
10
14
15
Total of 88

Okay...first about meleeness.

True, without the Ease-of-Use mod's shapeshifter component, Jaheira may be better than Cernd at fighting. But since the mod gives you stats the in-game werewolves have, I hardly consider it unfair...in fact it makes Cernd a death machine, able to deal out more damage than Minsc. But anyways. Let's assume we're playing unmodded here.

So Jaheira...she needs a host of good equipment to function well. Scimitars, some plate and so on...but Cernd doesn't. He can just shapeshift into a greater werewolf whenever he please and kill stuff. He gets handy bonuses when he's shapeshifted too, but they do pale in comparison against some stuff you find later in SoA and ToB.

His staff and cloak are hardly useful, so I won't even mention them.

But the thing that makes Cernd so good is the spellcasting - not only does he reach Level 15 fast, he reaches it *extremly* fast - in fact, I was still in Amn and before Spellhold when he did so in an earlier game. What this means, of course, is faster HLAs which, when coupled with his high wisdom, makes him a force to be reckoned with. He gets (IIRC) six Level 7 spell slots on level 15, which is humongous. Of course, this makes him pretty powerful in the SoA stages of the game (there IS a reason I put this thread here! Haha!)

As a side note, there's some mod out there that gives the spell of Summon Creatures as a level six spell (I think) and it summons some greater Werebears which can take down dragons in seconds. Quite overpowered. But Jaheira can cast that too so this is only a side note. I think it's Ease-of-Use.

Anyways, back to Cernd's spellcasting. Since Cernd has higher wisdom AND is a single-class druid, he will always have more spell slots than Jaheira. And when he runs out of useful spells, he can always turn into a powerful(ish, depending on where you are in the game) werewolf. Jaheira kind of saddles in the middle, IMHO.

AC for Cernd shouldn't be too much of a problem as long as you have good bracers or cloaks, but of course I agree that Jaheira's AC is much easier to boost.

Conclusion. Jaheira may be good at fighting and spellcasting at the same time, but Cernd is *extremly* good at spellcasting but possibly a bit mediocre at fighting.

Kicking out everybody else and force-drawing Throne is cheap, but I see your point.

 

I wouldn't say any NPC was ever useless, but there are certainly some who are slightly ... crappy. Like Valygar. Valygar loses out in my eyes largely because he's so damn boring. I actually really like Stalkers, and my favourite PC is a Stalker. Which might be because it helps avoid the V-man...

Also, Nalia is just a low-budget Imoen clone with red hair (although Immy is ginger too, really - don't let the pink hair dye she acquired since BG1 fool you!), and is fairly annoying to boot. Useful, since two wizards are a good thing to have in BG2, but completely ignorable if Imoen hadn't been taken from you prior to your first meeting with Nalia. She's not useless - far from it, mages are badass - but she's just, well, a little bit crap as a dual-classed thief/mage when compared to Imoen.

An interesting thought is the difference ToB makes to some characters, especially Aerie and Haer'dalis. The first time anyone takes one of these two, the natural reaction is "I did a whole quest for that?!" Both have some awful stats, virtually no HP and seem to be woefully broken. Then ToB comes along, and Aerie starts stacking Priest spells in contingencies, and using Quest spells and level 9 mage spells together. Haer'dalis just keeps spinning around while half-a-dozen Misleads sing improved Bard Song, before casting Tensor's, activating that Constitution girdle and becoming the best fighter in the party, while being able to cast preliminary mage buffs before combat!

But then, in a smaller party (4 or so members) they're pretty handy even in vanilla SoA (for the purposes of my analyses I'm assuming no mods for two reasons: I don't have any (unless you count Baldurdash and/or the improved-looking Robe of Vecna) and because anyone can write a mod that completely screws the game balance - as a rule "re-balancing" = overpowering). Also, I wouldn't consider what would happen if you used ShadowKeeper to change stats or class, because you're then talking about a completely different character.

The least powerful NPCs outright would be the fighter-types, because BGII is much more slanted towards spellcasters. In the event, though, they all have their uses.

And in a controversial note, I'm going to end by saying that Viconia is the least useful of the Clerics, because Anomen gets better (post knight test + gloves of DEX) and Aerie (as discussed) can combine her magics in entertaining ways, whereas Vi struggles in hand-to-hand and is a PITA to hang on to in a Good/Neutral party. And I never find MR as useful as some people, it seems.

As they like to say on exam questions: "Discuss".

 

Wow, I really didn't expect Viconia of all people to get put forth...and since I'm a bit tired to do Nalia, and I need to prepare my case for Valygar, I'll just talk about everyone's favourite drow NPC!! (unless you installed, and like, Solaufein, but that's not the point)

Anyways...stats. We love stats. Let's see.

Viconia
10
19
8
16
18
14

Anomen
18/52
10
16
10
12 (16)
13

Aerie
10

17
9
16
16
14

Totals are 85, 79 and 82

First let's assume that Anomen passed his test. Whopee, instant +4 Wisdom. However that still puts Viconia as the wisest of the bunch, meaning that if we're only considering clerical powers, she is the most powerful. Aerie, being multiclass, levels up slower than Viconia anyway. She also has a 65% magic resistance which, unlike in BG1, does NOT resist healing spells. Theriotically she should have a much better survival chance against mages although I haven't really noticed it that often...

But there are of course other things to take into account...Anomen is a very good tank, and Aerie can cast mage spells. Viconia however has a great 19 Dex which means that she would (again, theriotically, I don't pay attention to such details) be quite good with ranged weapons (ie: slings).

Now, I think it's fair to say from her low Con that Viconia was never intended for the front lines. That's what you have people like Minsc and Korgan and Anomen for...so yes. Her use should primarily and only be a cleric, healing allies and slinging enemies. And as such, she can do so better than Anomen or Aerie could thanks to her higher wisdom and single-classed-ness.

Although I personally would prefer them over Viconia as well. But still.

^ That was rather crappy, I think.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Anomen's clerical skills are a bit shoddy before his knightness. But, assuming we're powergamers, we'll get him knighted, which means a 16 Wis for sake of argument. If you're playing evil or bothering to roleplay then Viconia is the better choice.

Also, I forgot to mention that Jaheira has a Harper's Call spell that functions like a slightly crappier Raise Dead, which DEFINITELY ups her usefulness as cleric. But Cernd still gets more spells, and at a faster rate. So there.

 

Jaheira is just one notch below a Ranger/Cleric, Cernd is something else entirely depending on circumstances his special abilities can become useful, in most cases Jaheira will still be the most powerful and reliable option.

Viconia gets a better AC, she levels faster than Aerie (as you mentioned) and -it is entirely subjective- she is the only cleric that doesn't keep whining... The MR is the cherry on top, more often than not she can save your hide and I have used her to confront beholders in SoA that would have made a quick job of Anomen and Aerie (no shield of Balduran please). Aerie without stoneskin is a liability, Anomen requires crom fayr, the bracers of DEX and a really good suit of armour to become truly efficient, just give mail of the dead and a sling to Viconia and she is ready for work.
Anyway Deathmage is right, Viconia is intended to act as a pure cleric (by the way she is the only evil choice, which makes her a must have in any evil party).

@The Magpie: I understand the fact that you don't like Valygar (I can't stand Anomen and Aerie is getting on my nerves) but he has some great assets, a very good suit of armour and a good weapon too. His stats are not a powergamer's dream but they are not that weak either. Give him a girdle of strength, celestial fury and the shadow dragon scale armour and he is fully equipped (at least for SoA). If your favourite character is a stalker then you know that a stalker isn't a tank and he shouldn't be used as one.
Agreed his favourite enemy is a really dumb choice... Valygar is never going to take any golem down with his weapon proficiencies which means either you give him proficiency in warhammers (for instance) or use SK to change the enemy (is it cheating? Minsc used to fight gnolls in BG1 whereas in BG2 he is a vampire hunter).
It's subjective but I think his story is one of the best in the game and he has a lot in common with Charname (taint, curse, etc.) it's a pity there is no romance (Anomen pales in comparison).

About Nalia, she is so despised, it's sad actually. Her background is not that bad and (IMO) she is less irritating than Imoen but she isn't kin and kith. The only advantage she has (apart from her average items) is that she can join your party earlier on and depending on the time it takes to get Imoen back she can get some levels ahead, meaning that if you keep them both in your party she is going to be the better mage whatever happens.

 

My only gripe at Valgar is that he doesn't have enough banters, really. Like I said, Stalkers are a favoured class of mine, so it's not that I find him underpowered per se, just underdeveloped. You really don't hear much from him at all after going through the Planar Sphere. As for a romance, I'm sure I heard rumours of a Valygar romance mod at PPG, but don't hold your breath - I could have the wrong site or just dreamt it all.

And yes, Nalia's magery will probably be better than Imoen's when you reach Spellhold - it's just the way BioWare take Imoen off you, then give you Nalia who is suspiciously similar but not quite as good that troubles me. It's as though she was developed as a stand-in Imoen rather than her own character, at least to begin with. Granted, I too find her a lot less annoying than a lot of other people, but it's the way she fits into the game that irks me, more than anything. In fairness, it's a very odd point, and has little to do with powergaming.

And you're quite correct about Viconia in evil parties, of course. I suppose my definition of "useful" might be a bit skewed... I tend to gravitate towards characters with a range of abilities, particularly "spellsword" types. If someone's the shiz cleric-wise, that's all well and good, but I like to be able to buff up & go in swinging from time to time too. I think a couple less spells per day don't really compensate for that, especially considering how often you can rest, normally.

I like Anomen & Aerie more for their other abilities beyond pure Cleric-ness. I like clerics too (What classes don't I like for the PC? Pure wizards. Never got on with 'em, however powerful they are. And straight fighters are dull), but I like Anomen's dual-classing more, were I to power-game. I find he rarely has much in the way of XP loss compared to Viconia (and with rogue characters you'll probably get him at a higher level, oddly, owing to the way BGII allocates XP to non-party NPCs). Also, I tend to think of people "powergaming" good parties for the sake of the rep bonus, but that's a disease of my brain alone and completely daft, because the evil NPCs are better specialised in their disciplines, so will appeal more to those who like that sort of thing.

Of course, there are no absolute right answers (and the question was phrased to be a bit ambiguous as to what, exactly, was meant by "useful"), but Viconia struggles in more areas, I think, than the other two. Whether that bothers you depends upon both your style of play and definition of "power" gaming, I suppose. And I must confess to a little bit of Devil's advocate going on, too... So many people rave about Viconia I thought it would be interesting to see the response to a challenge to her clerical supremacy!

 

Minsc. Honestly, I can't believe why everyone take him. He even got A- in the GSimpson's Walktrough, IIRC it's the highest note from all NPC's.

Putting his... character... and hamster... aside, he has the lowest Stats score of all NPC's. His Str is good, I admit, but he has 16 Dex. This is too high to give him Gauntlets of Dexterity(Seems a waste), and still kinda low for a fighter focused on two-handed weapons(That's the feeling I got, but many people seem to dual-wield *everyone* - this doesn't help much anyway).
Next, class. As a Ranger, he can't go past Specialization, which hinders him further. Rangers can cast Druidic spells... so he will be able to cast one or two near end of BG2. Though personally I think that with WIS he's got, he should be not permitted to even use Magical Items
NPC-characteristic speciality is Berserker Rage, which will cause him to go nuts and kill party members. Yay.

 

I never understood how Minsc stayed a Ranger. Presumably he met the 14 Wis requirement before his bump on the head, but having only 6 Wis now, he should be a fallen Ranger.

 

Minsc should be a Berserker or a Barbarian, that would suit him much better. This Ranger thing is rather silly actually, the more so as he shifted from gnolls to vampires, how convenient!

 

I guess what I'm supposed to do is ask for a compare/comtrast of two NPCs in BG2. Well, I'd like your take on Haer'Dalis vs. ... ?

Hmm. Twould seem there is only one bard in the game.

Okay then. How about Keldorn vs. ... ?

Nuts, there's only one paladin, too.

Let the debate begin!

 

How about Haer'Dalis vs. Keto?

 

Imoen vs. Nalia

Nalia is a cheap imitation, and probably has problems picking her nose, much less some locks!


Korgan vs. Mazzy or Minsc

He's leaps and bounds ahead of these two in his role as a tank. Sure, Mazzy has some skill with a bow, but if you want to dish out damage in BGII, you need to go melee. He's also a grandmaster in the best weapon in ToB from the moment you meet him in the Copper Coronet.

 

Interesting thread, Deathmage. I, too, am interested in your defence of Mazzy v Korgan.

 

Right, Nalia vs Imoen. This is the most common debate I do...

Imoen
9/18/16/17/11/16
Total 87

Nalia
14/18/16/17/9/13
Total...also 87 (hmm...suspicious)

Right. Well. My main point is, by the time you get Imoen out of Spellhold, Nalia can POTENTIALLY be way higher levelled than Imoen. Think about it...all those quests you can do in Chapter 2? Umar Hills, Planar Sphere, de'Arnise Keep, Trademeet, Windspear Hills...they amount to a heap of experience which Nalia could benefit from. Imoen, however, will always stay at level 13 whenever you rescue her. I found this out myself when my swashbuckler entered the realms of ToB while busting her out.

Also, don't forget Nalia is like one of the first NPCs you can get. She approches you automatically at the Copper Coronet.

As their primary stats (Dex and Int) are the same, I won't bother to mention it. But yet I did anyway. Damn.

One thing I find about Nalia that helps a lot is actually her higher strength. This means that she could carry more (duh?). And one thing that really irked me about Imoen is the fact that she could only carry 50lb, which is barely enough for that suit of elven chainmail, let along her crossbow and main weapon...of course, you could give her one of the numerous strength-enhancing items in ToB, but wouldn't you rather give that to a fighter?

Next, Nalia has a lovely ring. +2 save, +2 AC, 50% fire resistance (I think?). It is unremovable, though. But I just had a thought...fire resistance. As we know, if you get fire resistance (or any resistance) high enough, they actually heal from fire damage. So theriotically it should be quite easy to boost Nalia's fire resistance up high, considering she has a built-in bonus.

Next, thief skills. Imoen is a level 8 thief. Nalia is a level 4 thief. Which unfortunatly means that Imoen IS indeed better than Nalia at thievingness. BUT...think about it. Do you really need a thief when you have a mage, or, more specifically, the second level mage spell, Knock? Granted, it is a bit of a hassle, but again, by the time you reach Spellhold Nalia will be higher level. High level = more spell slots. But ah, wait! Some of you say. What about traps?! To her defence, though, Nalia has a 70 in find traps...which is still slightly lower than Imoen's 85.

To those of you wallowing over Nalia's suckiness of thieving, I'd like to point out that there are quite a lot of thief skill boosting items in SoA and ToB. Granted, you can put that on Imoen to greater effect, but...I digress. Anyways, Nalia can potentially greatly outpower Imoen.

EDIT: And Nalia's female mage sprite is SO much sexier than Imoen's female rogue one. I say this seriously.

Next up, Korgan vs Mazzy vs Minsc (and also, Minsc's usefulness in general)

Right, stats.
Dwarven Psycho
18.77/15/19/12/9/7

Total 80.

Halfling Cutie
15/18/16/10/13/14

Total...86.

Human Psycho
18.93/16/16/8/6/9

Total, 73.

Right. Let's see. Korgan. He grandmasters axes no matter when you get him, is a great fighter, has humongous Con (meaning more HP), and is altogether awesome. What does Mazzy and Minsc hold against him, right?! BZZT! Wrong! For one thing, Minsc is taller. He has longer legs, which means he can kick further. No wait, that's rubbish, ignore me.

So...Mazzy. The thing about the best weapon in ToB is a wee bit subjective. There are many good bows in both SoA and ToB that can match the power of Korgan on a bad day. The first is of course the Short Bow of Gesen. A +4 bow that shoots lighting bolts. But what many people forget is you can, in fact, use it to shoot normal missiles - that is, you can use your fancy fire, acid, or whatever arrows and still retain the +4 bonus. I think I read some waffle about it being able to bypass defence or something due to the +2 piercing damage...I'm not sure about that. Next, there's the Darkfire Bow. Decent toy, improved haste 1x/day, and +4 (+5 if you upgrade it). Taralash is another good choice (also +4 but +5 if you upgrade), and it grants movement speed by +2. There's a lot of good short swords too, Short Sword of Mask +4/5 for example. Not a weapon Mazzy would use, but...yeah.

Now...while this bow thing is rather good, there's still something else that gives her an extra oomph. Mazzy has spells! Hurrah! She can cast Haste, Invoke Courage (like Resist Fear), Lay on Hands (personal version) and Strength all twice per day. The usefulness of Haste goes without saying, Invoke Courage is wonderful for dragon hunting or for getting party members to stop fleeing, Lay on Hands is just wonderful - it means that she doesnt' have to run back to the cleric or quaff a potion as often - and her Strength boosts her Strength to 18/00 (I THINK), which means that she actually becomes stronger than Korgan.

So, yeah, with her host of abilities that are all rather useful (especially Lay on Hands), I think Mazzy is a rather viable choice over Korgan.

Plus, Korgan can't even DO ranged attacks. Apart from throwing axes.

And onto Minsc. Minsc, being a ranger, can't fight as well as Korgan or Mazzy...but Minsc is versatile. As all rangers, he starts with two points in two-weapon fighting. From there, you could choose to have him wield a two-handed weapon or two one-handed weapons. Most likely a mace, which makes him excellent for vampire hunting. Mace of Disruption, see. His dex lets him be able to use a longbow (composite longbow, even) decently, but you probably won't really want to do that. Korgan, on the otherhand, goes for axes all the way, not giving a crap about special enemy types. Minsc can adjust to the situation and wield certain weapons with more efficiency.

His berserk ability is not as good as Korgan's one, and it makes him literally go crazy and attack everyone.

So yeah. Korgan is, IMHO, a point-and-click character. You set him on anyone and wait until they die. Mazzy require a bit more watching over and Minsc's weapons should be arranged according to the creatures in the area.

And, why not.

Valygar
17/18/16/10/14/10

Total 85

His strength and dex enables him to use close ranged weapons and bow with almost-equal skill. This is good. It makes him all the more versatile. His personal weapon is rather handy, and you can easily boost his two-weapon fighting so he can swing around Celestial Fury with it. Plus, he can stealth and backstab (and scout. His stealth really is quite good - I don't really remember him failing). And stalker special spells are actually rather good, although I tend to forget to use them. IIRC you get Haste as well, which is always welcome. Chromic Orb which I think they get is also handy.

Phew...what a long post... *goes to lie down or something*

 

Are you sure about this? I couldn't hit adamantite golems with any kind of arrows equiped with the SBoGesen, but when I fired "blanks" I'd hit them every time.

 

I think that's because the To Hit is +4, but the damage (on the arrows) are not.

As in, the Bow lets you hit more accurately, but the arrows, being +1 (for example), still cannot bypass the adamantine golem's defence.

I think. Yeah.

And as a side note, that NPC guide is one of the reasons I made this thread. There are no differences in the grade of NPCs as long as you know how to use them.

 

Which means that what it comes down to is a matter of personal taste, it is as it should be.

By the way Deathmage, Imoen is a 7th level thief.

 

Seems like you're right.

 

Mazzy vs Korgan

Some more points in Mazzy's defense ...

We all give our fighters girdles or weapons that boost strength, so Mazzys low starting strength is actually pretty negligible.

Mazzy has a nice 18dex, which means she doesnt need the gauntletts of dex, so she could actually wear the bracers of weapons expertise (or similar) so will actually have a higher THAC0 than Korgan (although he does have his rage which is very useful).

Mazzy is also a standard fighter, so why stick with shortswords? She can actually put 5* in any other weapon she wants ... maybe halberds or bastard swords or axes even

My usual problem with Mazzy is how best to equip her ... two-handed weapon or two-weapons or weapon + shield ???

The two things that make Korgan great are his CON and his rage. Other than these, Mazzy is easily his equal or better.

As to Minsc, well there is no reason to ever take Minsc except his personality. he is a weaker fighter to both Mazzy and Korgan in every respect.