NWO; Totalitarism/Libertarianism; leftism...

Remove all ads!

Everyone would wish to think of themselves as original, with no labels applied to their way of thinking of any sort. However, this does not change the fact that one can objectively point out that someone's else way of thinking, political ideology, etc belongs to a given determined mindset, bet it a leftist mindset, fascist, religious, rightist or whatever.
All those concepts are objective realities.
Thus, you might not regard yourself as a leftist, but that does not change the fact that I can objectively point out that your way of thinking is predominantly leftist.
As for the rest of your quote, unless in Finland marriage is not a religious instituiton, then it is not too different from where I live.
I dont know that much about Finland, but I would be surprised if that is the case...

If you implied I am a religious fanatic, I have no reason to believe you would not call me intolerant, as both things tend to be synonymous insults hurled against people who have a more traditional way of thinking.
Anyway, this is pointless.

Ok, lets try to forget about opinions and deal with facts here.
Firstly about the goverments... Lets take France for example. Not too long ago innocent and poor children were proihibited to bear crosses in schools.
The French goverment is working against it's own people for the sake of some muslim immigrants. I heard Italy was following a simmilar example.
In germany, a group of parents were jailed because they refused to put their children in the corrupt and anti-Christian/European school system of germany. It is not like they were denying study to their children, but they were going to educate them themselves, much like some families do in the US.
However, the german goverment does not allow "religious fanatics" to challenge their policy of indoctrination and brainwashing. After all, children should be exposed to NWO "values" since they are small.
There is the case of Spain as well, which is the worse. The communist Zapatero wants to charge husbands who do not "lift a finger to help their wives back in home", in his own words. How low have we sunken, really? Are we going to let hateful communist thugs to meddle in our most private matters now - what can be more private than your own family and home? because their hateful and schizophrenic minds dislike traditional values?
It does not stop here. He also wants to invite in the most immigrants he can, in order to make Spain the most ethnically/culturally diverse possible.
Zapatero is also constantly moving against the Catholic church.
Here it is the article about the husband thing: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4100140.stm
Notice I have only mentioned goverment's actions - just a tiny bit of the whole. There are also thousands of NGOs - which are most sponsored by goverments in reality - sociolists; "free thinkers"; mediamen; businessmen who work for the same end.
Now, I would be grateful if you replied with more than your mere opinion...

As I said before, you either are or not a relativist, whether you perceive yourself as one or not.
The fact you believe morality is subjective is already a good sign.
Plus, your error lies in assuming morality is something each one has his own, despite historical evidence the slow process of societies. It is true for philosophy there is not imoral, or un-moral, because morality is a personal thing. For philosophy a better concept to that would be ethic, which is universal, but I suppose we should not discuss along philosophical lines, but use the common sense.
Anyway, as I was saying, morality is something that has a deep meaning in both the West and my own society. Our Nations were built and developed according to moral codes that have become rooted in our National Culture and people.
It is not as easy as "Everyone has his own perception of morality, and as such to each his own, period". I am sorry, but that is a simplistic take on the matter.

Yes, that is what I said. The goverment should provide us security and order, which is the sole reason of it's existance.

I disagree. The moment the goverment intervenes in civil society to garantee the rights of a given group, that is purely social engineering. The State should neither encourage or discourage homosexual marriage.
That is the same when the state create quotas for racial/social groups. They do it in the name of libertarianism, but they are acting in the most totalitarian way.
Furthermore, I think you dont quite understand the idea of liberal justice.
The liberal system of justice was a huge step forward, because it assured there would be no more privilegies for groups of people on the basis of being born in a noble family.
People should attain failure or success according to their own deeds. The justice system exists to assure no one is going to have privilegies, and that all should be the same under the law. To garantee the rights of property, freedom and living to everyone.
The libertarian justice system was never meant to elect a few burocrats who think of themselves as the ones responsable to decide what is right or wrong, and force their laws upon civil society according to their own volition.

Ok, I suppose there is a huge gap of understanding here. Forget about it.

Ok, but you should be careful when giving opinions about matters you admitedly lacks knowledge about. Everyone is free to their own opinions, but in the realm of objective discussion this is a dangerous thing.

 

What given determined mindset does your political ideology belong to?

 

You are free to have your guess on it, but I call myself a Nationalist.

 

My problem is not so much the lables but jumping to conclusions and wrongly labeling. I'm economically a right winger and support limitation to our wellfare system, and I vote for a right wing party since I feel that it best represents my views. I despise all of the left wing parties we have and am deeply bothered by their high ratings, so I find that politically labeling me as a leftwinger would be incorrect. However, some Republicans from the US would probably label myself as a leftwinger and some even as a socialist, but it's quite irrelevant since that which matters is how my political views are inteprented in the society I live in and by myself.

There is really no such discussion in Finland. The Finnish word of marriage is commonly used to describe both irreligous marriage and religious marriage, and it has been so for quite a long time.

Natuarlly a society will automatically have some sort of perception of a common morality, that is true, and I'm not really trying to expand my beliefs beyoned my society, even if I would of course wish that my beliefs were the common global perception, but they are not and I'm quite ready to accept that.

For most of your definitions about libertarianism I really agree with and I think there is some misunderstanding between us. I never said that the state should encourage homosexual behaviour as you said I think the state should hold itself completely neutral to the matter. However to its duties would fall to supervise that no criminal activity is directed towards them because of their sexuality and that they have the same rights as heterosexual couples. Nothing more and nothing else required. I'm not sure where the disagreement even lies in this issue.

If I just shut up and don't participate in discussion then how am I supposed to learn anything in life? Each discussion for me is more or less a learning process, trying to understand what the other one's saying and trying to see how things are from his point of view.

Just as a friendly advise I'd like to say that in the Alley it has been often discussed that the worst problem of the alley is when those more knowledged in subject X slam down the opinions of those less knowledged in the subject, by calling them amateurs or some such. Now fortunaetly I've been discussing here about matters for quite some while and consider myself having quite a thick skin for these.

I'll have to tackle the NWO issue and examples on a better time.

 

I did a little research into the NWO...

I came across stuff about the Illuminati which is apparently an ancient group of relatives whom now run the world through domination of the media, governments and corporations.

It all seems to be somehow tied into the last chapter of the Bible "Revelations".

There was also talk of aliens and huge underground cities where they are preparing to take over the world and kill all people except a few leftovers who will be the slaves of the Illuminati.

Are you talking about the same things as these people?

Because you do know that would make you a ...

And could you describe a Nationalist for me? What are some of the platforms of your political party? Is it a political party?

 

Oh, I see, maybe I indeed jumped to some conclusions. You say you are for limiting the welfare system and against the high ratings, which I agree with, and which indeed is not an economical left winger position.
However, when I say right and left I am more concerned with political stances, and as far as I could gather, you are more on the left side.

I see. It sounds like religion has no bearing in your society, or so it seems to me.

I see, but my point is that you can not spit on more traditional notions of morality, on the account that each individual has his own moral code, because, as I said, morality is a deep part of a Nation's Culture and development.

Maybe we have a misunderstanding indeed. To clear that out, let me make my point shortly.
The only way to attend the demands of all minority groups, and to solve all social "conflicts" is by having a totalitarian state that is very keen in intervening in the civil society and meddling into our lives. That is why I am very cynical at all "humanist" and "libertarian" rhetorics which have as banners the garantee of the rights of "oppressed" groups.
I know better about their intentions.

Maybe you are right, and sometimes I might sound a bit arrogant, but I take some matters personally I guess, which is why I might have little patience of tolerance on some occasions.
I am glad you have a thick skin though, it avoid us unecessary formality.

Feel free to do so, but indeed take some time to dwell into it.
---------------------------------------------------

To make it short, the answer is no. I am not a lunatic.
The NWO proponents are much more solid and real than some aliens. I mentioned a lot of them already.
It is not like it is a huge conspiracy theory anyway. It is just a group - although this is an understatement - of people engaged in replacing millenia old values and Culture by a New World Order - NWO - which is very un-Christian, anti-European and anti-traditionalism.
The NWO could be simplified as any other ideological movement, like nazism, comunism, liberalism, etc. Dont take that literally though, I am only trying to make your comprehension easier.

You dont know what a Nationalist stands for? Well, I stand for my people and Culture.

[ September 25, 2005, 01:06: Message edited by: Svyatoslav ]

 

Svyatoslav, I am taking the liberty of labelling you as you labelled Morgoroth. I label you as a fascist, you seem to fulfill a whole bunch of the criterias such like rampant xenophobia and calling yourself nationalist.

 

Ok , so NWO is a new ideology with is in contrast to your own ideology , from what you said it seems more un_religions and not particularly un_Christian , I really don't understand the anti European part and anti-traditionalism is not a new concept in ideologies and it leds usually to advances in society

Actually i belive the muslim children are more affected by this law then christian children since religion symbols are more important in their religion (i belive) , a law such as this is wrong but it is not directed specifically against christians

 

So being a Nationalist equates being a fascist? Also, could you point out how I am a xenophobic? Do you even know what that is? If so, why is it a bad thing?
You only show your pitiful ignorance. My Nationalism is based upon the ideology of great men whom came much before the development of the fascist ideology, and never had anything to do with it. Thus, it has nothing to do with fascism. Examples of such great men are Dostoevsky, Danilevsky, Iljin, Markov, Dubrovin, Purishkevich, Pobedonostsev, Solzhenitsyn, Shafarevich.
You are free to label me however you want, but be careful not to look like a fool, as you do now.
---------------------------------------------------

I guess you could think into the Godless American neo-liberal policy as a great example of NWO. I dont think it is more un-religious than un-Christian, because Christianity is most certainly the most hated institution by the kind of people who support the NWO - whom are almost all leftists, socialists, etc.
Also, Christianity is perceived as the traditional religion of "European opressors". It is a Western religion, and the NWO hates everything Western. Actually, most NWO agents support muslim radicals, as they are a threat to Western Civilization.
As for the traditionalism part, I think to say anti-traditionalism is a way for development is a simplification of the thruth.
Despite, when I say anti-traditionalism, I mean they are outrightly against all and every aspect of European Civilization and Culture. It is not a simply matter of disliking a given religious ritual.

But France is a Christian Nation. It is imoral to prohibite it's own people to wear symbols which are dear to them. As for the muslims, they are immigrants, and they should integrate themselves, or pack their bags and move out. It is very simple.

 

No matter what a government does, it becomes their efforts in social engineering. Consider a nation like a garden. When the government encourages something, they try to cultivate it in this garden. Law enforcement is there to weed out undesirable elements in that garden. Other things are actively discouraged. When a party tries not to engage in social engineering, they stop cultivating that which is desirable, and allow that which is undesirable to flourish unchecked.

I don't think that this is what he was talking about, nor did I get that impression from reading that post.

However, I remember reading in the Book of Mormon as well that there would be "secret combinations" that put their own agendas forth as there were in olden times. I don't think that they are so secretive though. An example would be OPEC, basically meeting to restrict the flow of oil to get as much money out of consumers as possible.

The problem is that there are many cool things about other cultures, and many would be sweprt aside if xenophobia were allowed to run unchecked. The problem is that areas where they conflict and are not easily reconciled are often neglected. Just as I stated earlier about social engineering being like tending a garden, in some cases they try not to cultivate morality or even actively discourage it, while encouraging it's opposite at times. And if this NWO means the elimination or discrediting of Religion and the promotion of that which religion considers immoral, then maybe it's not to far off what was mentioned in the Book of Revelation...

France was wrong to prohibit religious symbols period. It was an affront to all religions. It would be acceptable to ban weapons or drugs, to which those religious would be affected, but a simple cross on a chain, or LDS temple Garments, or a turban should be fine...

 

Sounds like xenophobia to me...

As to why it's a bad thing, well, everything is relative I'd say it's a bad thing because xenophobia breeds intolerance ... but then maybe you don't see intolerance as a bad thing...

 

Svytoslav, the label of you as xenophobic was deducted from the many comments from you about people coming to new places and not belongining. Does not take much smoke to come to the realization that there is a fire.

Same with the fascist = nationalist thing, pretty much everytime I have encountered the term nationalism it has been an euphemism for, in mild cases, fascism and quite often outright nazism and racism.

 

@ Svytoslav

Where are you from? What particular cultural nation do you defend? I think you are Slavic or Russian but I realize those are umbrella terms that can mean a lot of things.

So please descibe your traditional Christian culture to me.

You are quite fascinating, if not a little scary, so please indulge me if you will.

 

Some muslims are immigrants but some are french citizens and have the same wrights as the christian france citizens , the french constitution says that there will be no discrimination based on religion

If I'm to take a guess i would say that Svyatoslav is a white nationalist , but people are complicated and do not fit totally in one ideology or another

@Svyatoslav can you please provide one or two links to information regarding NWO

[ September 25, 2005, 17:27: Message edited by: Incarnate ]

 

The problem lies in letting a few burocrats decide which is desirable and which is not to the civil society.
I dont think the recent examples have been good. The more power the state has, the more politicians think they are our rulers, instead of our representants, and the more they try increase the power of the State.
With all due honesty, do you know any Western Nation that had the size and power of the state to decrease since WWII? No, the goverment becomes bigger each passing day, and the reverse result is that we have less and less freedom and autonomy.
They treat us like children. Nowadays, one can be sued for "sexual abuse" - dont know if that is the proper designation. But what is that exactly? For starters, it is the criminalization of a perfectly male behaviour - hitting on a girl. Secondly, it assumes women are infantiles creatures, whom need the support of the state to give a simpleno. Do we really need the state to rule this kind of personal interaction between people?
I dont know if this happens everywhere, but I do know for a fact in some places you might go to jail, because you cutdown that tree which was about to fall over and smash your house, because of ecological laws. How stupid is that? It is just an excuse to take away from us even more autonomy.
In many European countries you can go to jail if you hold "extreme" - read unpopular - beliefs. Thus, they also control what you think and feel. Add to that zillions of pro-workers laws, pro-feminist, etc and I will be surprised if we will be able to buy an icecream without the acknowledgement of the state in the future.
The kind of moral justification they need to apply these social control measures into us, is giving us the idea of eternal social conflict, between economical classes, gender, race, religious, between old/young people. Doing so, they make us believe they are right when they increase the taxes - after all, the goverment needs lots of money to "fix" all these terrible social conflicts - or when they restrict our freedom to protect ourselves from our "vile" nature.
Notice, although I dont live there, I believe the US is still a much healthier place than most of Europe in this regard, in the sense that you have a greater deal of freedom and autonomy; in one hand because the welfare state is smaller, on the other because politically it is far less leftist.
I drift away a bit because I do agree with you, but the desirable aspects that the goverment should cultivate, as I see it, are to enforce our security; stablish a minimal social order; build up a strong military to protect us from foreign domination; international commerce; protect our individual freedom and, hopefully, let us guide the civil society as we see most fit.

Yes, it is not a conspiracy, because these people dont act secretive at all. They do it so in the open, but they do have a powerful mass media to convince the us otherwise.

But you see, xenophobia is only a problem because the people who are against it are the biggest supporters of it. I guess it has a bit to do with what you have said: "The problem is that areas where they conflict and are not easily reconciled are often neglected".
The people who demonize xenophobia are the same deffending the coming of even more immigrants, and the one who dont want them to integrate into their host Nations, but rather "preserve" their ethnical Culture/Religion. Thus, xenophobia ensues, as a natural survival response.
And yes, the NWO is against Christianity and morality, because neither have a place in their order based upon the neo-liberal model; both are a challenge to their internationalist and borderless World aim.
The NWO is the enforcement of artificial and false values, false tolerance and diversity.

Here we fall once again into that previous discussion. The goverment burocrats nowadays think of themselves as our rules, instead of our representants. They think they can control what we feel and think, that they can take away from us our moral and spiritual bastions. It will eventually back fire at them, and chaos will ensue.
Notice with what prettense they do such a thing. They ban religious symbols in the name of a false tolerance, in order to fix "social conflicts" - religious in this case - because we, supposedly, are not rational enough to rule over our own lives. These people feed upon lies and conflicts that exist only in their hateful and sick minds, so they can present themselves as the sole martyrs to protect us from ourselves. It all falls into place...
I will reply to the others in a bit.
---------------------------------------------------

What is xenophobia? How are my views xenophobic?

I see some people are still hurling out concepts they do not know the meaning of. As soon as I am done with my reply I will start a new thread with a great article on tolerance, as this is another discussion.
---------------------------------------------------

[ September 25, 2005, 17:27: Message edited by: Svyatoslav ]

 

I can't believe I've missed this, time to have fun with the people who don't know jack about Europe!

*bleep*

Wrong, would you like to try again, or go for the winner question; Do you think all Müslims are out to get the 'pure, white, and christian west'?

The French have banned all religious symbols in school. Be it Jewish, Christian, Müslim, Buddhist, and/or Hinduist, it won't be allowed. They do NOT oppress Christians, don't be paranoid.

The people where behind this, too, so they do not bully the people.

Germany does NOT equal US. What's legal in US doesn't have to be legal in Germany. If homeschooling is illegal in Germany, then they are not allowed to homeschool. It's as easy as that.

And yes, you are a xenophobe. NWO is bull and crap, made up by people who wants a bit of attention.

And I would like a source about their jailings, one that's not from Fox or any other extreme right-winged newspaper.

There you showed your ignorance. Zapatero is not a Communist. He does not advocate the death of the invidual. He does not follow Das Kapital. In fact, read Das Kapital before throwing around the Communist label, okay? It only makes you look ignorant of the real world.

Yes, damn him for accepting people from other nations. We should all build walls around our contries and shoot all who tries to leave/enter. In fact, we can have guards on top with G3-A3's, sandlines on the ground to see who are walking, and giant flashlights in the walls to easily spot people in the dark.

Hello DDR!

Ahh, yes. You mean because he wants to seperate Church and State? Or because he allowed Gay marriage? El oh el, poor Catholic church. If they can't handle it, get lost.

And I say that as a Christian myself, FYI.

 

Come now, Rutkowski, don't spoil our fun. This is better than the joke thread!

Methinks the <PRO_LADYLORD> doth protest too much.

 

I can not edit my post again, so I am making another post.

I am not surprised. Anyone who is not a supporter of how the things are developing, gets labeled a nazi. Even Le Pen was accused of fascism, nazism.
Anyway, as I said, my ideological backround is rooted in the brightest minds of my folk, and has nothing to do with Western fascism or nazism.
---------------------------------------------------

I am of Ukrainian descent. I defend the cultural right of all Slavic Nations. I am not a pan-Slavist though.

As ironic as it may seem, I am not particularly religious. I am not really up to the task of enlightening you about the Russian Pravoslavine tradition. I could give you links to Orthodoxy if you so wish though.

It should be noted, despite how long these immigrants - or their successors - are living in France, we can not ignore France has always been a Christian Nation, and so are most of their citzens. I dont quite think we can treat both religious with the same importance to the French Nation.

No! For sakes no! Not that I am against the idea of Whites to preserve their own Race, but I dont care a bit for the idea of White Nationalism, because I think it is a stupid concept. European Nations are very apart from each other, and each one is unique, that I think the proposal of some sort of unity is more harmful than positive. The idea of White Nationalism is against National Culture/ethnicity, which I am always for.
If my people were to mix with any Western people, or with africans or Asiatics, we would cease to exist the same way.
Furthermore, my only concern is about Slavic people, for me to care about "Whites".

You mean an article that has NWO written on it? I will have to look for it.
Maybe you could find something similar in Pat Buchanan's "Death of the West", but I would not know for sure.

 

Interesting, a nationalist who wants less government. Don't you think that this is an oxymoron? Could you tell me just one nationalistic regime, which has provided less government intervention and more freedom to the people? Frankly, I cannot remember even one. On the contrary, when I hear the term "nationalistic regime" what it comes to my mind is secret police, thoughts control, prosecutions, places of exile etc.

Also, as far as the NWO is concerned, I'm hearing this BS for more than 15 years now and usually it comes from people who believe that the barcode is the number of the beast, however let's suppose that it realy exist. Have you ever noticed that those, who use this term in order to describe their plans for the future are usually the conservatives and the nationalists? Also, IIRC the first, who used this term for his vision of the future, was Adolf.