On Backstabbing

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Hello -

I am returning to BGII after quitting for a while in disgust when a hard drive crash wiped the games I had going. My latest effort, I have decided, is going to be a character that deals massive physical damage as fast as possible, and that means backstabbing.

So, how does one soup up backstabbing? I've given it a deal of thought, and I thought I'd post my conclusions for general consumption and critique.

The natural tendency is to consider the assassin class, with that sexy 7x backstab. But, after crunching some numbers, it seemed that the assassin does *not* make for the ultimate backstabber!

Looking at how backstab damage is calculated is revealing. Basically, every damage modifier except for STR bonus damage gets multiplied. You can express it as an equation as follows:

BSD = ((WR + WDB + WPB + WSB + CB) * BSM) + SDB

where:

BSD = total backstab damage
WR = weapon roll (e.g., 1 to 6 for a short sword)
WDB = weapon damage bonus (e.g. 4 for a +4 sword)
WPB = weapon proficiency bonus (i.e., damage bonus from specialization)
WSB = weapon style bonus (i.e., bonus damage from weapon style)
CB = class bonus (i.e., any +DMG from class/kit)
BSM = backstab modifier
SDB = strength damage bonus

For great, consistent backstabbing, you want to achieve the highest minimum damage possible so that the smallest possible hit (WR = 1) still results in considerable, crippling damage. So how do you crank up that minimum damage?

I think the Kensai/Thief dual-class takes the cake.

Obviously, the further you develop the Kensai before dualling the better, but I for one hate waiting forever to be a fully realized dual class, so I'd dual at 9. The significant stats this nets you for backstabbing: -2 to speed factor, +3 THAC0, +3 damage, and 3 uses of Kai.

As for weapon proficiencies: both single weapon style and two handed weapon style give you critical hits on 19 and 20, so they are equal on that count; but, two handed style *also* gives you +1 minimum damage. Since the only thief-usable (i.e., backstab-enabled) two handed weapon type is the quarter staff, I decided on grand mastery in quarter staves. I developed to grand mastery because that fifth star nets you an extra +1 minimum damage (for a total of +3).

So, with the layout decided, let's see how our Kensai/Thief stacks up against the assassin. I'm going to assume quarter staff use/two handed style for the assassin as well for an apples to apples comparison (giving the assassin the benefit of that extra +1 from the two handed style). In both cases, I'll assume use of the Staff of Rynn +4 that Ribald sells. Since a Kensai cannot wear belts, I'll assume a conservative 18/51 STR for him, and 19 STR for the assassin.

So, the assassin's variables are:
WR = 1 (we're calculating min damage)
WDB = 4 (+4 Staff of Rynn)
WPB = 0 (no specialization)
WSB = 1 (two handed weapon style)
CB = 1 (assassins get +1 hit and damage)
BSM = 7 (7x backstab at lvl 21)
SDB = 7 (19 STR belt)

BSD = ((1 + 4 + 0 + 1 + 1) * 7) + 7
BSD = 56 min at level 21

How about max?

BSD = ((6 + 4 + 0 + 1 + 1) * 7) + 7
BSD = 91 at level 21

So, our level 21 assassin does 56 to 91, with an average of 73.5.

What about our lvl 9 Kensai turned thief?

WR = 1 (min damage)
WDB = 4 (+4 Staff of Rynn)
WPB = 3 (grandmastery yields +3 damage)
WSB = 1 (two handed weapon style)
CB = 3 (lvl 9 Kensai gets +3 hit and damage)
BSM = 5 (regular thief tops out at 5x backstab)
SDB = 3 (18/51 natural STR)

BSD = ((1 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 3) * 5) + 3
BSD = 63 min at 910,000 XP for 9/13 Kensai/Thief

And max:

BSD = ((6 + 4 + 3 + 1 + 3) * 5) + 3
BSD = 88 max at 910,000 XP for 9/13 Kensai/Thief

So, our lowly 9/10 K/T does 63 to 88 damage, with an average of 75.5.

What conclusions can we draw here? The Kensai/Thief has a higher minimum damage (which is very desirable), and a higher average. Furthermore, he is fully realized at 910,000 XP, compared to the assassin's 2.42 million!

And there are more benefits as well:

* Better THAC0 due to Kensai bonus and grand mastery
* More thief points! (thieflvl * 25) + 20 vs. the assassin's (thieflvl * 15) + 40
* Kai! When you positively have to have that fantastic backstab, the Kensai can do max damage at will, 3 times a day
* If your victim survives your brutal opening stab, you have two attacks per round to the assassin's one (and those attacks can be boosted by the same Kai that maxed your opening stab)

I'd like to note in closing that a high level assassin dualled to a fighter can achieve even more fantastic backstabs than the Kensai/Thief I have described here, but a 16/17 or 21/22 Assassin/Fighter takes a *very* long time to realize, and furthermore are only possible in the expansion that shall not be named.

Lastly, there are gloves available very late in the game that will up the assassin's minimum damage and put him back on top...but what fun is it being the best for so short a space of time? The Kensai/Thief rocks from shortly after emerging from Irenicus's dungeon! And besides, if the absolute max at any price was the goal, you could develop a Kensai to 12 or 13 before dualling. But I want power *now*, dagnabbit!

So go go Kensai/Thief!

[ January 31, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Macready ]

 

Hmmm... how interesting.

But there is something the assassin can do that the kensai/thief can't do. Chaotic Evil. It seems fitting that someone who kills for a living is CE.

 

Hey, Macready, welcome back! Gonna try that hardcore thing again? (I made it to Ch. 5; others had better luck.)

Anyway, I think you've just shown why K/T's are so popular. The one thing that the assassin has over the K/T is the poison damge, which becomes really awesome at high levels, and great against mages. But I'm an expert on neither, so I can't really say which is best.

 

Hello -

Thanks for the welcome, Splunge.

Yes, I am trying the exact "hardcore" concept I outlined in that earlier post, except that I have no intention of quitting if I fail. I'll finish the game while acknowledging failure in the hardcore component.

[ January 31, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Macready ]

 

Can you use Kai and then backstab? I'd think the Kai would ruin your surprise, but I could be wrong, as I've never tried Kensai-Thief.

 

Hello -

I haven't yet reactivated my Kensai abilities, so I can't speak to this with absolute authority. However, I did test Kai on an invisible (via potion) pure Kensai, and it did not break invisibility. Therefore I would assume activating Kai would deactivate your stealth, but you should have plenty of time to get the attack off before you actually become visible. The order would be: get into position; activate Kai; stab.

[ January 31, 2004, 14:30: Message edited by: Macready ]

 

Good stuff Macready! I'm a huge rogue fan, so geeky stuff like this is right up my alley.

In addition to staves, Idobek's tweak mod will also give the option to wield any katana in game with two hands, with the full benefits of the 2h weapon style. Even more damage possibilites.

 

Kensais can't wear belts? Are you sure? I believe they can. Which of course just makes the K/T better, but still.

 

Killing someone for money seems to be more of a Neutral Evil/Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral act.

Hmmm...

If only one could make a Kensai/Assassin Multiclass...

 

Kensai/thieves are hard to solo until kensai levels are once again active. I started playing with LE Kensai 9/thief today and I decided to investigate graveyard right after slums, and all monsters are damn hard! Even those little spiders keep killing me with their poison. My thac0 is poor, my thief skills are poor, my equipment is poor...

 

Hello -

@CamDawg:

Geeky? You mean women aren't impressed by dual classing prowess?

Thanks for the compliment.


@Sparhawk:

OK, I have no idea where I got this notion. After you posted that I dug out the girdle of blunt protection, and sure enough the Kensai could wear it. Macready = moron (they both start with M!).


@Harkle:

Well, the Kensai part owns. I solo'ed Irenicus's dungeon with ease. The only thing you need are potions to clean up the damage.

If you manage your XP well and dual at 9 (fairly early, IMO), and then make good use of the Athkatla gravy quests, you'll have the Kensai reactivated in no time.

However, I do happen to agree with your main underlying point: dual classing is a PITA (starting over at lvl 1 in particular, and then waiting to get the first class back). The assassin doesn't have to go through this. But, that's why I recommend the crossover at 9 -- if you keep it to just you and Imoen in Irenicus's dungeon (rescue Jaheira and Minsc right before you exit), you'll be almost 9 when you emerge, and it's fairly simple to dual over and start doing talking quests (e.g., orphan in the graveyard).

 

Look, if you want to talk about bisexuality, take it to the Alley.

But seriously, I think your plan makes sense. Dual when you leave the dungeon. Rogues level up quickly, so it shouldn't take too long to get to level 10.

Good luck!

 

Sudden urge to solo Kensai/Assassin. Must......not.....give......in........

 

Too bad you can't solo a Kensai/Assassin even with SK.

 

Dual class Kensai/Thief and add the "Poison Weapon" ability to his innate powers with SK!

Nyah! Nyah!

The Kensai/Assassin that is not!

 

Shura, IIRC you can make Kensai/Assassins. (Not legally, obviously) but I'm sure there was a post not too long ago where people were talking about dual Kit multiclasses such as Wizard Slayer/Archer and Sorcerer/Cleric bla bla.

Never tried it, but apparently it is possible. :S

[EDIT:]
Read Rastor's post here.
See, I told you I saw it somewhere Shura + Mystra's Chosen. I would so love to play Kensai/Assassin/Sorcerer... that would kick so much ass.

[ February 01, 2004, 21:48: Message edited by: Gopher ]

 

Well, I was browsing the TeamBG forums a few days ago and I came across this thread devoted to cheesiness by UserUnfriendly (the chap who has the cheesy guide), where they've described how to use only Shadowkeeper to give yourself immunity to Timestop, permanent Improved Alacrity effect etc etc in addition to kit bonuses like a Kensai's extra speed and damage bonuses without the item restrictions.

So it would be entirely possible to play a Kensai/Assassin by just playing the guy till he was level 18 and manually giving yourself extra backstab multiplier, and again at lvl 21, and the poison weapon ability would be through the Innate Spells tab. As you see, anything can be done!

 

Hello -

Some updates:

* It was laughably easy to reactivate my Kensai abilities. After emerging from Irenicus's dungeon, I went to the Slums, killed the two named street thugs, and then Amalas, which brought me to 250,001 XP (1 past the requirement for lvl 9). I then went to the bridge district and solved the murders (you can get full XP without doing the fight in the final room in Rejiek's house), did some random robbing with the associated XP from trap finding and lock picking, and then did the circus quest in the promenade. Finishing that put me over the 160,000 thief XP needed to reactivate the Kensai. Not bad considering I only had to fight a couple of shadows and Kalah in that whole 160,000.

* You can in fact Kai/Backstab. Get into position; pause; press the special abilities button (which deactivates stealth right there); press Kai; wait for the Auto-Pause on Spell Cast; press F2 to attack and select your target. Blammo.

* I seem to be doing too much damage. As a 9/10 Kensai thief, I have a 4x backstab modifier. According to my calculations, using my +1 quarterstaff should yield a range of 41 to 61 (with my +5 STR bonus dmg). In actuality, I am doing mid/high 60s to low 90s damagewise. I tested the Kai backstab on Mira the merchant in Waukeen's, and did a low 90s backstab. I then reloaded and resumed playing, and was consistently scoring 60s and 70s on street thugs and muggers. The most satisying example of my overdamage happened when I stealthed into a building in the Bridge District, realized I'd walked into Valeria's house, and quickly ran back out before becoming visible. Due to some weird scripting bug, Valeria followed me out alone, and was homing in on me perfectly despite my invisibility. Not wanting to lose my initiative (I was due to become visible any second), I got behind her and attacked. I rolled a 19 (crit) and scored 154 damage. That's seventy-seven non-critical damage. If you back out the STR bonus and divide by 4, you get a base damage of 18. I can't see how I possibly could have achieved a base damage of 18. Even a max damage roll should have yielded (6 + 1wep + 1style + 3grandmastery + 3Kensai) = 14. Any thoughts?

At least I can say that the Kensai/Thief is as potent as I'd hoped. In fact, it's moreso, and I haven't been able to figure out why yet.

 

I've never worked out the maths behind the backstabbing but I remember once get 182 points of damage on a Rakshasa during the battle for the elven city. Even taking into account my magical weapon and strength, that seemed like a freakishly high amount.

 

You said for "fairness" you'd assume the assassin was using a staff? why would an assassin use a staff, surely they could get a more damaging weapon? if it was just to even out the comparison that just detracts from the assassins power without giving the K/T any penalites...