On Social Etiquette

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The other day I was riding home on the bus. A few stops after I had gotten on the bus, another passenger got on who was very unclean. Maybe that's putting it a little mildly. This man smelled like he slept in a dumpster and hadn't bathed in a decade or so. He stumbled over to a seat that was occupied by a sweet little old lady and flopped his stinking body down next to her. I was at least three rows away from the malodorous offender and I was already gagging. I couldn't imagine how the sweet old lady was feeling.

Now you would think that someone would have said something to the fellow...."Take a bath dude" is one phrase that might have worked. Even, "Hey Mr. did you know that they came up with this amazing new invention called a bathtub?" But NOBODY said anything to him. There might have been even a small possibility that the guy didn't know he smelled worse than the dead animal pit at the dump. But how would he ever know if nobody told him?

Well, I guess I should make my point here. It's in my culture. I'm Canadian and I'd say that in some cases we are just too polite. Rather that cause a whole lot of people a lot of relief by sending Mr. Stinko packing, we all bite our tongues and save him the embarassment. I think we're too worried that everyone will point a "your naughty" finger at us if we dare to speak up.

I know that there are representatives of a lot of different cultures on these forums. Tell me what your lot would do with such an individual. How is your culture in general, and what traits of your culture do you find illogical, hypocritical, or maybe just a little silly?

 

No one would say anything in Sweden a well, and you know what? I dont think anything should be said. A bus is a public place so it is a risk you take everytime you go on that some freak of one persuasion or the other shares that space with you. It would simply be rude to say something. Did you ever think as to why this man smelled so horribly? Perhaps he was homeless? Perhaps his bathroom was being renovated? Perhaps he was a crazy junkie who would have shot the first one who mentioned his smell?

 

Here in Poland no one would say anything except perhaps a group of badly brought up teenagers or people in early twenties.

Perhaps the old lady would ask him to sit elsewhere. Or maybe she would ask some man for help. Depends...

The stinking guy might have some problems, indeed. However, who doesn't realise if he stinks worse than cat vomit? He shouldn't have taken a sit next to anyone, first of all.

There's one thing that escapes some of our modern societies: the group's matters more than an individual's problem. That we have democracy doesn't mean a random person can do anything he pleases and the has to bear with it. Democracy provides some rights, but democracy isn't about individual rights: it's about majority rule, simple as it is.

I'm not taking it to extremes such as getting the man voted off the bus, but if he knows his stinky presence will affect the whole bus, he shouldn't go by bus. Or choose an hour when buses are nearly empty and try to keep distance. Whatever.

I wouldn't say anything. If asked, I would deal with deal with the stinko, but that's about it - it isn't my business. If the smell bothered me too much, I would leave the bus and walk or take another one. Again, if the smelly started to behave aggressively or otherwise rudely, I would most probably convince him to leave, so to say.

 

That is public transport, get used to it or don't use it. I never use busses; I would rather get a taxi or walk. Where I live, I think that a person in that state would not be allowed on a bus.

 

Well I didn't say anything to him as well. I'm not saying that he shouldn't be allowed to use the bus. The problem is that no-one says anything to such an individual to save him the embarassment and it's doing just the opposite for him. He continues to believe his physical state is acceptable and he does nothing to change it. Most of society is not going to look at him and feel sorry for him. He will be singled out with disgust and treated poorly whether or not he is a good person inside. That is the real problem.

It's like children. If their parents don't teach them to be polite and to wash there hands and use a napkin when they are eating then society looks at those children and calls them "brats" or whatever label you want to use. Who's fault is it? Not the children themselves because they were never shown the acceptable behavior. The children are the ones that get the brunt of the negative attention however and not so much the parents.

 

If you felt so so sorry for him, why didn't you say something then? The reason that I wouldn't say anything is that I probably don't care enough. I'll never see him again so it doesn't matter whether I say anything or not. If it was someone I knew, then that might be different.

 

Recently I've developed a form of 'confidence' that I actually would have said something to him. However it wouldn't have been a 'comment', it would have been a polite conversation filled with "excuse me, sir"s and "I hate to bring this up if you already know... but" can't forget the "I mean no offence [but you smell like 5 different types of poop]".

I guess it is a dodgy subject to kick the guy off the bus because he has a right to public transport but there is no law preventing people from making a nasty smell. You would be sacrificing the right of an individual for the comfort of the majority.

 

Strong nasty smell that can't be avoided is an intrusion on your senses. It's quite obvious the guy's hygiene was greatly deficient, which put the health of the other passengers at risk. Together, it makes more than just the comfort of the majority, especially in the case of the old lady next to whom he took the seat. She had every right to demand that he go damn elsewhere. Plus, busses typically have some ToS or rules or whatever such, expressly saying bad smell and other obscenities don't go.

 

I you use a public system, be prepared to have to deal with the dregs of society at times. To all the children and young adults out there (who are certainly the majority on this site): Work hard in school, get high paying jobs and ride to work everyday in a BMW or Mercedes, and you don't have to worry about the damn bus stinkos. I haven't ridden on a bus since my college days, and do not see myself doing so again any time soon.

 

I never learned to drive out of enviromental stubbornness, so unfortunately for me I always have to use public transport, and I have to say, I sympathise so entirely with the old lady. Here in Britain we're laughed at the world over for out ettiquette and "Stiff upper lip" so nobody would EVER say anything to a smelly, a wine-o etc. but we get it just as bad. It is a sad world when people allow themselves to get into that state, and I cannot imagine that he doesn't know that he makes the air around him hazy, as I feel like a social reject if I go a day without a shower. I might be a heartless B@st@rd but I don't believe there is any excuse for subjecting the masses to such a thing.

 

If you think the bus is bad. Then I wouldn't advise volunteering to work in a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. I have actually seen things crawling on the people who come there to eat. I have personally tried to encourage the homeless or less fortunate to shower and take free clothes; or at least wash the ones they have. Some take that offer others just take the new clothes and sell them on the street for more booze or drugs. Its very hard to help someone who doesn't want your help or doesn't have the mental capacity to know any better.

 

He's drowning and you offer him toothbrush. Too bad he's too dumb to know how to use it.

The masses don't wanna know. We lock away all offenders - and where this approach doesn't work, we're trying to ignore the problem.

Do you all really think the problem is that the guy doesn't take a shower on a regular basis? Maybe the problem is that he hasn't got anyone who has a personal relation to him. Isn't this pitiable? We, however, don't want him to become any less anti-social. We want him to not exist. Go away, punk.

Then again - maybe he is just an old stinkin' bastard enjoying the discomfort of others...

 

Uh, Darkthrone. I don't think DHB's actions are similar to your 'drowing' example. Offering clean clothes to people who lack them is rather suited to the situation. It would actually improve their situation if they used those clothes for their intended purpouse, unlike a toothbrush given to your drowning man for the toothbrush wouldn't help at all.

 

True enough. Trust me, I got that. In no way did I attempt to belittle the efforts of someone doing some social work. I was rather referring to the fact that while of course every little bit of help is appreciated, the main problem too often is unaddressed. Why are those people homeless and drug/booze addicts? Why do they refuse to be helped in the way Dark Haired Beauty described?

Being offered some new clothes is nice - but that doesn't change a lot about the situation homeless people are in. Of course it is not the same as a toothbrush to a drowning man, but it still is far-off from being a life-belt.

Mainly, I'm bothered by the "mental capacity" stuff. An addiction to something like alcohol is terrible and powerful. The mechanisms that keep you under the yoke of the stuff certainly have nothing to do with intelligence. Apart from that, all's swell.

 

Actually Darkthrone, those who sink as deep as that person mentioned probably do have what is called a double-diagnosis meaning that they are both a drug addicts and have mental condition and/or have somekind of braindefect. Heck, judging by what I have seen during my time working with that kind of people they tend to have all three; drug abuse, psychiatric problems and they are dumb as bricks ie very lowly gifted intellectually. These people are impossible to help, the best you can do is to put them in a home somewhere where they atleast get food and shelter seeing as they are completely incapable of doing anything whatsoever. There is no question about helping them in time or anything like that, sadly these people are more or less doomed from birth both due to genes and the environment they are born into.

A person with only one of those problems usually dont sink that low and are able to receive what help is given. So a normal junkie would be able to live somekind of life and probably become clean if he gets help and support, a person with mental problems and no drugproblems can if the problems are not severe live with their illness with some help of medications and people around them and a stupid person most certainly can get by, heck you can even become president!

 

I agree with joacqin on this one.

The problem is not that we want him not to exist. That's not true. We want him not to exist in his current smelly incarnation.

Compassion does wonders, but it typically only works on people who have a shred of compassion themselves. When people don't care that they're causing major pain to others, then something is obviously wrong with their compassion, isn't it? Pitiable as the guy's condition may be, it doesn't give him any right to disregard other people. But he doesn't get that. How, then, are we going to help him? Whatever material help he gets, he will sell it for booze. He won't suddenly start to maintain a level of hygiene, or a less than frightening presence. Granted, he won't make that on his own and he needs help from other people, but that help isn't going to work without him willing to cooperate.

Putting the problem of guilt and responsibility aside, if he's being a major pain and obstacle to the society's normal functioning and is not willing to change, he should be isolated or forcibly treated for his condition or some such. Not as a form of punishment in any way, but to prevent the damage he's doing.

 

And putting all morality aside a quick drop and a short stop'll fix any problem.

Feed the homeless to the hungry I say, kill two birds with one stone.

"Naughty, Abom! Naughty!"

 

Yep. Ok. Good. Ah, come on, now, double- or even triple-diagnosis is a bit oversized, isn't it? There may be poor souls out there falling into that category, but it doesn't make discussion any easier when we just assume anyone who is clearly besides the current norm is clearly beyond any help.

And the idea about forcing someoneinto psychological treatment: well, I'm all for it, all the way. Boy, I'd love to have some people treated for the offensive clothing they are wearing. Could you believe there are still people out there who think a sports coat matches up perfectly with a pair of jeans? I think this may be even worse then offensive smelling...