Online Affairs

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I work with a young man who is engaged to a sweet girl that I met earlier this week. Tonight while at work I caught him online with another girl telling her how much he loved her and cared about her. Since his real life girl friend was just in the store I knew it wasn't her he was chatting with. He asked me not to tell his fiance he had an online love cause she wouldn't understand and would be upset with him.
I told him I wouldn't lie to her if she asked me and that I felt it was totally wrong to be doing what he is doing to both girls. His response was that fooling around and having a good time with someone on the net was not really cheating.
Needless to say I don't agree with him at all. If I had a person in my life that I cared about and found out he was having an online affair I would be upset and deeply hurt because I feel it is cheating the same as in real life.
I would like to hear your views on this subject. Is an online affair not the same as a real life affair? I feel you should be accountable for your actions online and offline.

 

I think we might have had a topic on this in the not too distant past.... but here goes.

Life is rarely black and white. Without knowing the specifics and his history, it's hard to give an opinion here. It could be a very complex situation, but at the very least, his fiancee should be told of his on-line friend I think. And you could be assuming that his on-line friend knows nothing of the fiancee....that may not be the case. Either way, both women should be made aware of the other, at some point. Obviously, his online friend is fulfilling something that he feels he needs or wants, that may be lacking in the other relationship. Just because you see the other girl as "sweet" doesn't mean there aren't problems between the two of them. It's really hard to say -- but he's online with this girl for a reason. I wouldn't call him an ogre for that. He needs to figure out why, though.

 

Oh, I'll call him an ogre!

An online affair isn't the same as a real-life affair, just as heavy flirting in the office isn't the same as frequenting hotels with your attractive co-worker.

But it's still honorless!

Lust is lust is lust. Some have the courage to engage in full-blown adultery, but others just skirt around the skirts' edges. Sure, it's marginally better if you never take disloyalty to its logical conclusion. In that sense a purely online affair may not be pure, but it isn't as bad as it could be. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still unloving - for anyone involved.

And if this fella's online friend is fulfilling something his fiancee doesn't provide, it won't be long before he meets someone in the flesh - at work, at church, a neighbor - who fulfills that very same thing. No one can perfectly fulfill another person in every respect, no matter how wonderful that significant other is. That's why we make commitments to each other as persons, to what we are, not by what we can provide. And sounds like this fella, if he's engaged, is bending that commitment. Not a good omen.

/self-righteousness

 

I agree that it bodes poorly for the relationship that this guy has started an emotional relationship with someone online. And I also agree that it constitutes a kind of cheating. However, I''m not sure whether taking it upon yourself to resolve the situation by telling the fiancée is the right solution either. Not that I'm saying you should cover for the guy; if the fiancée brings you into the situation by asking if you saw anything, then you've already been drawn into the situation, and it's no longer private. It just seems to me that it would be better to start by letting the guy know that you think what he's doing is very wrong, that it's unfair to the partner, and that it's no doubt doing major damage to his relationship. I know that you might think that fiancée would want to know that someone she wants to make a lifelong commitment with is in danger of straying, but then again, she might not, and it might even add another dimension to the whole situation if she knows it's become a public rather than private issue. So if I were to err, I would err on the side of discretion here...

 

Aye, what the rest of the people said. Obviously the guy has a bit too flexible morals there. Even if he's physically devoted to his fiance, doing what he does is still the same like desiring someone else on the emotional level. Not just that, but the online love is being cheated there as well (at least there's reason to believe that).

Put it this way. For the girl the guys is her only love, for the guy the girl is just one of 2 loves. Hardly fair, unless you believe it's right for a guy to have 2 wives without the 2 knowing about each other.

 

It's good to keep friends' private things secret. However, doing harm to other people is hardly private.

"She would be upset [if you told her]" is a common excuse of cheaters. By this, they divert attention from the fact that they actually cheat, and try to place the focus on the cheated person being upset if told the truth. As if it were all good if that person weren't told. And they are oh so concerned with the possibility of a person being upset with bad news whom they actually betray in cold blood. Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Further, the guy isn't in love with the other girl. He actually even said himself that it's just fooling around and having a good time. Conclusions are as follows:

1. He prefers having fun and good time to honouring his commitment.

2. He lies not only to his fiancee, but also to the other girl - he told her he loved her and cared for her. If he actually loves her and cares for her and therefore hasn't lied to her, then he has lied to you.

3. He doesn't want to solve the situation in any decent manner. He simply wants things to continue undisturbed. In short, he wants to do the same and wants you to keep it secret.

Also, what happened and what he said later makes it clear it's an affair and not two friends joking. Well, friends of opposite sex will sometimes say things like "hello, darling", "hi, love", "hey, hottie" or "does this mean you love me no more?" and similar. Sometimes they will hug, embrace, or a girl will sit on a friend's lap. I've seen all that. However, this is not the case here. Quite obviously, something is lacking for him in his relationship, but he does nothing to solve the problem between himself and his fiancee. Instead, he seeks to obtain satisfaction elsewhere and in that he is wrong.

For whatever happens he has only himself to blame. You're under no obligation to protect him from the consequences of his own choices. Especially if he chooses to hurt people. In my book, innocents go first.

If they had already been married, you could give him an option to end his online romance and keep quiet about it. However, the girl is about to marry a guy who is already cheating on her.

If I were in your shoes, I would tell her openly in his presence, stay there for a while to deny all lies he immediately thinks up and feeds to his fiancee and then let them sort it out.

He will inevitably blame your for the decline and possibly fall of his relationship, but it's better than if you were to blame yourself for letting him destroy her life. And there's also the online girl being cheated.

Spelly probably means this topic: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/20/748.html#000000 or this one: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/20/770.html#000000. A similar situation to yours, both of them.

 

This seems very wrong ... I'm all for monogamy and having another relation online or in RL, when in a committed relation with someone else, is wholly unacceptable for me.
Especially when not all three people involved know of the other two.

 

[Righteous Mode]

@ Grey/Foradasthar/Chev - dead on. There's a real difference between BSing with your friends or being comfortable around them and what this guy is doing. And if he's about to get married, then he's obviously not ready for it if he's looking online for attention.

IMO, if someone wouldn't feel comfortable doing this around their partner, it's pretty much the same as cheating. Sure, there's no actual sex involved in an online relationship/affair, but he's still spineless for doing it, concealing it, and asking you to keep quiet about it. People can justify anything to themselves if they want to, but it's dishonest and these things have a way of coming to light. The truth may be inconvenient now, but it will be a lot more inconvenient six months or a year later.

[/Righteous Mode]

In your shoes... I don't know what (if anything) I'd do. Thankfully, I've never been put in that position.

 

While I agree with a lot or the statements on here I gotta point out that y'all are being incredibly judgmental. And, more importantly, many of you seem to be jumping to conclusions.

I think Bion hit the nail on the head:


"So if I were to err, I would err on the side of discretion here..."

Now I wouldn't be doing what he appears to be doing. But I don't know the extent of his transgressions...if any. His business, and I wouldn't give it another thought unless I knew more about it, or if I (in the case of Dark Haired Beauty) were to be witness to it again.

 

Well, Llandon, discretion is a virtue and so is moderation. However, it seems to me that you are overly dismissive of the value of his conscious involvement in behaviour that violates obligations he has taken on himself. Also, I'm under the impression that you don't see the matter to be so important as the rest of people here do.

The fiancee is in danger of wasting her life with a man who already cheats on her (or moves very close to it - depends what you consider cheating), even before they marry. One shouldn't really leave it up to him to do that to her.

I don't understand what you suggest in the latter part. DHB has seen him, he has confirmed and asked for discretion. One doesn't do that, nor need to do that, without a transgression.

Of course, we haven't seen it. We all rely on DHB's observations. However, it's hard to get something wrong when they tell it to you directly, and well, the guy's own words work against him.

As a matter of fact, it's not only his business. It touches three more persons: the belied fiancee, another belied girl, and DHB who has witnessed the guy's side-affair and of whom he asks certain specific behaviour that would suit his current need for keeping things undercover. That's hardly his own business. Especially, if some of those persons (at least two) are going to be hurt as a result.

I still agree it's a very delicate matter and extreme caution should be exercised when deciding to take part and fix it. However, I can't agree that absolute discretion is anything more than cooperation - ie that's exactly what he wants and what he needs to continue his wrongdoing.

Of course. That's how it gets when someone asks opinions.

I can give you proper inference from premise to conclusion with each step described...

First of all, I say he does wrong. Let's start from this one. While not all of us, and probably a minority, are Judeochristian, I suppose that the Decalogue is a commonly accepted moral guideline. The sixth expressly prohibits adultery. Fiancee is a girl with whom you're engaged and have promised to marry. While we may debate as to whether it counts the same as adultery in marriage, it clearly is wrong in the light of the sixth. If adultery is wrong, cheating on your... ekhm... betrothed also has to be. ERGO: wrong. QED

Next, probably all of us, as well as any law or society on this globe, believe that oaths and promises are meant to be kept. And that obligations are meant to be fulfilled. Becoming engaged with someone involves at least a formal promise (if not a solemn oath) and creates more or less abstract commitment together with more or less precise obligations. That commitment is exclusive so long as we stick to monogamy. It's clear in this case monogamy is a rule.

Therefore, whatever contradicts monogamous fidelity and exclusiveness of partners, contradicts fidelity. What contradicts fidelity contradicts commitment and constitutes a breach of obligations mentioned. Also, it violates a formal promise, or even an oath. ERGO: wrong. QED

These two were simple. Now on to the more complex ones.

I concluded the guy was acting selfishly, out of selfish motivations and had only himself to blame. Looks like poetry but can be proven.

Selfishly? Here goes:

A lame partial justification was his only response, so I fail to see any extraordinary mitigating circumstances. He knows he is doing wrong and actually knows how he transgresses (cheating, namely) and he tries to alleviate it by "not really". Ie, what he was doing didn't really count.

That's totally different to what he said to the other girl, and he said he loved her and cared for her. He clearly didn't and has admitted that. Another possibility is he lied when he talked to DHB, but that would be quite a selfish and manipulative lie to cover his back.

He refers to what he's doing as "fooling around and having a good time with someone". That's essentially the purpose of dating, romancing and having a relationship, looking from the perspective of human needs.

We have established that it contradicts fidelity and therefore all promises and commitment. And is wrong. He knows that, therefore:

1. He chooses consciously to do wrong. For what reason? To have fun. ERGO: his own fun is reason enough to do wrong. That's quite the definition of selfish.

2. Having fun wins with promises and oaths and other obligations to other people. ERGO: selfish.

Also, he clearly knows how his fiancee would feel about that. He specifically asked DHB not to tell his fiancee as she would feel upset with him. And he still does that, nonetheless. ERGO:

1. Having fun is more important than caring for his fiancee, and being good, kind and true to her. A very selfish kind of cheating is how this is rated.

When he asked DHB to keep things secret, and talked about fooling around and having good time, he didn't display any willingness to stop his affair and whatever wrongs associated, let alone rectify them anyhow. As I've "proven" (as if it needed to be proven), he knew what he was doing and that it was wrong. ERGO:

1. This isn't a moment of weakness. This is something lasting.

2. He wants to have both girls. This is conditional upon there only being two.

We have also established that's clearly in violation of monogamous commitment to his fiancee. However, in the light of the assertions and implicit (at least) promises he made to the other girl, he is also in violation of that commitment. Honour is all about commitment. Choosing to have this state of matters continue is, ERGO:

1. Dishonourable. In fact, one could even say honourless after GM. (note this doesn't mean the guy is honourless, only his actions - however, he isn't what one calls an honourable person)

Also, by keeping things secret and not attempting to rectify them, he avoids responsibility. Not facing the situation, ie neither stopping it and choosing one girl, nor telling them both what's going on and so continously deceiving both, that's seeking to avoid accountability, and avoiding accountability is irresponsible (accountability must be a part of responsibility for something). ERGO:

1. He acts irresponsibly.

As it's been established that he acts selfishly and irresponsibly, knows what he's doing and that it's wrong and he doesn't care, we can safely conclude that:

1. Either he is rotten to the core, or he doesn't really get it. People aren't really this kind of evil too often, so the chance is little that he is. It's more or less to assume, with overwhelming probability that he needs to pay some more attention to his neglected spirituality. Revise some of his concepts, rethink his way of life and improve on the obvious wrongs. Shows that he isn't ready for a serious relationship.

I don't judge him, just what he does. I don't take it out of thin air, nor off the top of my head. Now you see my whole train of thought before posting what I did. You hardly have any jumping here. I consider all circumstances of which I'm aware before taking a stance. And I'm about the most demanding critic of my own points, taking the role of advocatus diaboli on whatever I spawn before making it public.

Still, all this logic isn't necessary if one simply asks "would he do that if his fiancee were looking?".

[ July 19, 2004, 13:10: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

Let me start by saying I agree with what this person is doing is wrong, and he is being unfaithful to his fiancee. Heck, some people believe even looking at pictures of nude or scantily clad members of the opposite sex in a magazine or online is a form of cheating, so certainly talking to somone, and having romantic feelings for someone is certainly, on every level, cheating.

However, I think it is a leap of logic to conclude because this guy is acting dishonorably that it falls on DHB - or anyone else for that matter - to take it upon themselves to help rectify the situation by informing his fiancee. In fact, I would state that the exact opposite is true. As DHB has admitted, she hardly knows the fiancee - she has just met her the previous week. She obviously doesn't know the whole story of their relationship, and I don't think it's her "place" (for lack of a better word) to inform the fiancee. It isn't her duty and honor does not dictate that she do so.

Now some may say that allowing the transgression to continue while doing nothing to stop it, is in a way being complicit to it. I don't see it that way. Bottom line is just because DHB happened to see this doesn't make it her business. It's between the guy the woman, and the other woman - and no one else. I certainly think this guy needs to re-evaluate some pretty important issues - and do so before he gets married - but it's not DHB's job to see that he does.

 

It surely isn't DHB's job. It can't be required. It will always be interfering in someone else's matters and sacrificing discretion for a greater good. I would probably agree with you in 100% if the couple were already married and if it were sealed. However, in this case, the fiancee is about to marry a guy who is already cheating on her. That's fraud and that's evil. That's why I would try to stop it if I were in that situation - first by having a long talk with the culprit, second, even by telling the fiancee if necessary (ie if the guy would refuse to fix it on his own).

I would indeed favour discretion if the guy could be convinced to end his affair and start treating his fiancee seriously - not like I believe it's likely to happen.

It doesn't fall on DHB and it's a matter of what principles you adhere to first. For some people discretion will come first, for others preventing the evil. While I wouldn't really favour discretion in this case, the idea isn't altogether wrong. Wrong would be to ignore it altogether without giving a thought to the matter.

There's nothing the whole story could change. It will most certainly not make cheating wrong. If they were in a free relationship - ie without exclusiveness - he wouldn't keep the affair secret.

Also, there is nothing that could justify deceiving two women into thinking they're each the only one. He can always choose one and abandon the other. No whole story will change this.

Yes, to know the whole story would be greatly helpful, but it wouldn't change the essentials.

 

OK, I'll concede the part about knowing the whole story - the whole story is a moot point. Wrong is wrong, and what this guy is doing is wrong. I could even agree with you as far as talking to the guy about this. But going to the fiancee and telling her - a person she barely knows - is way out of place. I'm trying to place myself in such a situation, and I don't know how I'd react if someone who was essentially a complete stranger, told me my spouse was being disloyal to me. I'd probably blow it off and not take it seriously. What could THEY possible know?

And that's why I would recommend against DHB telling the fiancee. Obviously I don't think DHB has any obligation whatsoever to the online romance. For all we know, that girl already knows that the guy is romanticly involve in RL with someone else, and she might even know he's engaged. Regardless, it's probably safe to say that even if she did know she wouldn't care. I don't know anyone who would think that an on-line romance would constitute some form of monogamy on the part of those on-line. (RL relationship are of course an entirely different matter.)

So, I agree that DHB may want to talk to the guy to see if she can cause him to change his ways. That would be the right thing to do, and I think should be considered enough to clear one's concience of doing the right thing. Telling the finacee who she hardly knows though is certainly a bad idea. I mean - how to you even approach that subject to someone you barely know?

 

My case is almost the same, I started to "date" a girl online, at first wasn't too serius, just flirting and all of that, at the same time I was dating with a girl here where I live, but not too serious, when the "online" girl and I got serious the "local" girl wanted be that way too but I feel that I really want to be with the "online" girl, feeling that I would cheat on her feelings I stop seeing the "local" girl.
Looks like guys (here at least) have the need to cheat or something like that, some of them say to me: "she can't know", "she's far away" etc., I think no matter the distance, if you say to someone that you love him/her and get the same kind of feeling, is wrong to do what YOU KNOW is something you don't want the other do to you.

 

@Aldeth: If the guy refused to stop either of his relationships, I would tell the fiancee, but in the guy's presence. I would probably gather the two together, saying I need to tell something to both of them. Then, I would share the news and say that something needs to be done and it's up to them now.

It's not my business what they do with it, but I don't like the idea of letting the girl marry a guy who already cheats on her before marriage. Marriage won't fix anything, it will only make matters worse.

And we don't know if the online girl knows that he is engaged IRL.

If you follow the link I supplied in the first post I made in this thread, you'll find an old topic in which I described a similar case.

The difference was that the fiancee asked me and I told her. I was honest about that - told the truth, whole truth and only truth and also corrected all wrong conclusions she first conceived. I sort of started advising her and it appeared to work at first. She made an ultimatum, as I told her, and he promised to stop his online romance. I told him off and, in fact, I had been talking to him about that before his fiancee came to that chatroom. It got complicated, since later I was also advising the guy as well. Ultimately, he broke the promise and I had no heart to cover his treacherous arse by misleading the poor girl. I withheld nothing, telling all as it happened - but again, caring for the picture to be full and sound.

Ultimately, she decided to leave him. She packed her bags and went back to her home town. It was the right decision, as time showed very shortly that the guy was deeply into the online girl (she was very captivating... thank God I resisted her in my own time). Actually, he again turned to me for advise. I still suggested not pursuing that romance. I have a rule, I always give honest advice when asked; as a result, I had to advise both of them (she had the guts to turn to me for advice after all she did to me - no telling, though) against getting involved with the other, as they both had cheated RL people in the whole affair. In fact, I even told each that I had caught the other lying, but let's not digress too much.

I haven't heard anymore from the cheated fiancee after one final talk when she was both deeply hurt and relieved. Thank God she didn't make the mistake of marrying that man. The online girl is about to, but seeing as they both acted about it, I decided that they both wanted it and they both had indicated their direction clear enough. Let them face the consequences of their actions, I'm not their good father.

 

In the case of the person directly asking you, then I would advise telling them all. In that case, they obviously feel comfortable enough to broach that subject with you, so I don't think it is out of place in that scenario. Otherwise, who knows? Maybe they would be happier not knowing. Also, I have found that many people won't believe second hand information. Furthermore, some people will simply not learn other than through real life experience. Unfortunately, the problem with getting real life experience is that you get it right after you needed it.

 

Thanks for the wonderful opinions. I also apoligse if this topic has been on a recent board I searched but guess I missed it.

Today at work I found out neither girl is aware of the other. Also I have decided to keep out of it because:

1. I would never of known if I hadn't went in his office without knocking first. I didn't know he was in there at the time and I needed a lost video form. I dont like to invade anyones privacy and I feel I did on this ocasion.
2. He is my boss and today he told me he would fire me if I told anyone. I need the money for school and I will only be working here for about three more weeks.

 

He would FIRE you? Oh, now we KNOW he's scum!

And that means he knows he'd get into trouble if his fiancee found out. Which means that right from the outset he's willing to do things he knows are wrong and hurtful if he thinks he can disguise the evidence.

But yeah, it's not your responsibility to inform either girl, and it would involve a serious invasion of privacy. And probably get both girls really mad at you. Like Aldeth said, the girls probably wouldn't believe you. Mentioning anything about this affair would be, well, a bridge-burning affair.

But maybe it's an opportunity in disguise for an act of mercy for these girls (and, indirectly, the guy). Even allowing that all three would hate you for it (in the short run). Maybe it's even better that way -- so when they shoot the messenger, they hit a stranger (you) instead of a best friend. (Uh, isn't that encouraging?) It's not as if you tried to spy on this guy -- you accidentally stumbled across this.

Well, given the way this unfolded, I imagine if there'll be an opportunity to talk, it'll happen. Don't worry about it 'til that opportunity arises.

But speaking of "indecisively attracted" men...

 

Well then, in these circumstances you have to be quiet and the blame goes on that scum.

It's illegal for him to threaten to fire you if you don't keep it secret. It's called blackmail.

If I were you, I would get him in trouble the next day after leaving the job. It's not like you can do more than cause discomfort and make some things come out of hiding, but that should be enough

 

Them's fightin' words! I'm with Chev on this one - if you don't need a reference, then just get him in trouble either on your last day or the day after. I thought this guy was just dishonest - obviously I was being too flattering.