Opening that religious can of worms again...

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Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, she holds homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors.
They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination thanhomosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Doesmy vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.

How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

Thats crazy man just crazy!

 

ROTFL, i just cant wait to show Mathetais this one

 

I'm a devout Catholic myself. Here in the Philippines, 80% of the population (around 70 million)are Catholics.

As a people, foreigners tend view as us rather conservative and traditional. We have those same issues here too, though.

The way I see it, I prefer to think that God is a loving and understanding father, rather than a vengeful, wrathful deity. Sure, we get punished for our sins, but I figure I'll leave the judging to Him.

Its sad that sometimes those who claim to understand the teachings of the Lord are the ones who are all too ready to shut heaven's gate.

Nice post Sprite!

Cool response. Our parish priest is gonna love it. In his words, he "...hates sanctimonious asses. Only God is holier than thou."




PS: Umm... don't ask me 'bout Catholic girls, okay?

[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited October 21, 2001).]

 

ROTFL!!!

I still don't understand the people who still think that religious books are not written by humans-mortals, but by god(s)...
Besides, one rule or style or behavior at a time was probably normal, but we don't live in stone age any more. Or we are?

[This message has been edited by Extremist (edited October 21, 2001).]

 

I'm not Jewish, nor have I ever been. (No circumcision jokes.)

But it's more than a little uncool to make fun of their religion. (See? I take more things seriously than just anti-America jokes. )

If you really want answers to the objections listed in the "joke", then talk to a rabbi. I expect any would be happy to explain Jewish law. If you don't care to take the time to do that, then at least have enough respect for their religion not to make fun of it.

[This message has been edited by Shralp (edited October 22, 2001).]

 

I don't think too many rabbis today would tell you that God expects you to burn oxen or keep slaves, any more than today's priests would. This is making fun of Laura Schlessinger's selective use of her own religion, not the religion itself. You wouldn't need to change a word of this for a Christian that tried to use Leviticus to explain why they weren't homosexual.

[Edit: actually, the more you know about Jewish law the funnier this is now that I think about it- if you feel so inclined, ask a rabbi for the context in which Leviticus was written and you'll see why it is ludicrous- and hilarious- to apply it to modern North American lifestyles.]

[This message has been edited by Sprite (edited October 22, 2001).]

 

This has been floating around for a long time and was used by the writers in the American television show "The West Wing" last year in an interesting episode.

Also, the argument against homosexuality espoused by the "Dr." (she doesn't actually hold any degree in any psych. related field despite what her show might lead you to believe) is used commonly by many religions who read the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures or whatever it is called in that particular religion. I know that includes Christianity (at least the most populous sects)and Judaism. I flipped through the Quran a few years back and saw much of the Old Testament/ Hebrew Scriptures there as well but don't recall whether Leviticus was there or not but it might be part of Islam as well. I think when Leviticus was written it was common practice among other religions in the region to practice homosexuality and so some argue Leviticus' warning was actually an admonition to not convert to one of those religions.

 

Christianity's prohibition against homosexuality is also in the New Testament.

I can't quote you which chapter of the Koran has the prohibition against homosexuality, but I'm fairly certain it's in there too.

Schlesinger, while I can't say I'm a supporter, is not selectively using her own religion. Orthodox and Conservative Judaism still has a prohibition on homosexuality. She just has her religion's reasoning incorrect -- and actually I don't think I've ever heard outside of this joke email that she cites Leviticus as her reason, so she might not even have that wrong.

 

LAMO!! Anyone know anybody that's Seventh Day Adventist? No offense to any that happen to read this, but I went to a SDA high school, and they have some real issues. They take the Bible word for word. Literally. They have more friggin rules than D&D!! No jewlery, no make up, no long hair for guys, no music, no meat-eating, no movies, no ANYHTING on Saturdays (their day of rest) I could go on and on. This post really takes me back to those days. Whoever wrote that must have had contact with that buncha nuts.

 

Okay, first let me say this this is hilarious. The rules & prohibitions in the Bible can lead to huge misunderstandings, if not understood properly.

Now, can I try to explain? Please?

/me grabs the can of worms and rips it WIDE open!

I believe that the Old & New Testaments of the Bible are inspired by God. That means that God's Spirit led people to write his message. This was not rote dictation ... God allowed the various cultures & personalities to show through and add color to His message.

The Old Testament is a book of looking forward and waiting. The whole point of the OT is to lay down the expectation that we need a King / Savior / Priest who can accomplish that which we are unable to do. On this list would be 1) Live a Perfect Life; 2) Achieve Righteousness; 3) Secure peace for the Land; 4) Deliver Acceptable Worship to God, etc. ...

Then Jesus entered the picture and the LAW didn't exactly change ... it was fulfilled. Check this out from the Sermon on the Mount ...

"Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven. "But I warn you--unless you obey God better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!

I know this is getting long, stick with me a little more ...

So, when Jesus fulfilled the Law, he did so by supplying that which the OT was pointing towards ... a PERFECT Prophet, Priest & King. He stands in our place before God and through faith he graciously gives his righteousness to his people.

So, what about the Laws in the "joke" ?

Looking at the whole of Jesus' teachings, he fulfilled all the "external" conditions of righteousness. Therefore it does not matter how much lobster one eats, whether you are on your period, or if you have a shirt of a polyester blend ... you can still approach God.

He also removed the moral conditions of righteousness. We stand before God based on the goodness & purity of Jesus, not on our own. I know of homosexuals, adulterers and liars who are Christians and I expect to see them in heaven.

However, he did not remove the moral commitments of discipleship. The fore mentioned homosexuals, adulterers and liars are not content with the way they are right now. They are praying, working and trying to break out of the sinful habits that they have fallen into. They hate their sin and hate the fact that they sometimes cannot resist temptation. With tears and prayers, they seek God's help to be transformed out of their current state and into purity.

So, should we put these homosexuals to death? No! Jesus told the woman caught in adultery (another sin punishable by death) to go and sin no more.

Is the only other alternative to accept these sins? No! Jesus told her that it was a "SIN" and to not do it anymore.

I hope this helps ... being a fundamental believer in the Bible does not make you an insane "extremist" (sorry for the pun Ex)

 

LOL...!! I don't believe that! Are you sure they weren't joking?! If not.... This is why, on the whole, I'm not religious.... I have a friend who'se religious, but she's not like that. I can't imagine HOW BIG the sticks up the asses of people who think like THAT are....

 

Indeed, however you shouldn't say this immediatly. But some things are realy culture and time. By Jesus his death we don't have to offer anymore and many laws, for example what meat you may eat and what not... That laws all pointed at His birth and death, with His death those laws where no longer necessary.

At the other side, you can make jokes like this, unless it ain't jokes but sarcasm against the bible.

Many people see God as a serious man that looks very serious... that's wrong. God has more humor then anyone on earth could imagine. He loves jokes, when they aren't amde at the cost of someone elses happiness.

 

One must also remember that before the fulfillment of the Law (I am a Catholic and do not mean to offend any Jews, Muslims, etc.) the Jewish calendar coincided with their religious beliefs. On that calendar, one day out of the year was put aside for the redemption from sin.

I don't remember the name of the day, but anyway, one sin could be forgiven on that day that had been committed during the previous year. Therefore, if any mortal sins were committed, you pretty much were damned. The whole stoning, burning, exiling thing was a means to remove you from the community if you had committed a mortal sin. This way, you could not be an influence on the rest of society. Since you were damned anyway, why not speed you along?

In any case, after the coming of Jesus, the institution of confession (or at least pure forgiveness) was instituted so that one's soul could be redeemed even if one had committed a mortal sin. In the teachings of the New Testament, Jesus points out the abhorence of Sodom and Gamorha, and thus, we can derive from his phrase that homosexuality is still considered a sin. Although, it is now forgivable if one possesses a good and honest heart.

On a side note, I once lied to my parents, and when they discovered it, they demanded an apology. I did so and then asked if I should buy a lamb and sacrifice it.

 

Homosexuality is also spoken against in Romans 1, if you're interested. As Paul also pointed out, the law was not actually meant to be kept. It was meant to prove to man that he COULD NOT be holy enough to merit salvation on his own. It had to be by sacrifice.

I don't consider Christianity to be a set of rules. We as Christians are striving to be perfect (oh, how short we come sometimes!) because we love our Lord. It's much like a girl who's in love with her handsome knight in shining armor... she'll change the way she does many things just to please him.

 

Well spoken Capstone. In Jesus, and also Relevations speak about a bride and her future husband in the bible. The church is the bride, and we try to please God like Capstone said.

We are still weak and make many mistakes but God helps and forgives us.. and when the new earth will start, we all will be perfect and God will live with us on the earth, for the heaven will then come down and unite with the earth and together eartha and heaven be together and God and humans will be together too.

You don't have to deserve that paradise by doing the right, good things, Jesus already deserved it for you bye dying for you, except that and tell it to others and you will do good and right things through Jesus, no because you have to, but as a sign of thankfulness.

 

Just to throw my two pennies worth in.
I make no pretence at being any kind of religious scholar but I have no problem with people being religious and/or having faith. The original post to me suggested that it is interesting how times change and how over a very long period of time what is considered to be acceptable in the eyes of the religious establishment evolves. It also showed how hypocritical it is to quote some parts of a text to make your point while conveniently ignoring others. - I found it amusing.

What I find very unamusing is the continued apparent attempts to justify that homosexuality is wrong. I appreciate that some of you are saying that it can be forgiven etc but what is to forgive? Homosexuality causes no harm to the individuals involved so why should they be made to feel guilty or sinful.

I have a friend who is a lesbian and she had quite a difficult time trying to overcome societies taboos on the subject and a really difficult time with her parents. Where was the church when she needed support during these hard times - driving her away for being unatural and a sinner. Thank god she was surrounded by more broadminded and tolerent friends who recognised the need for support regardless of their own views.

Anyway to my mind you might as well start saying that it is wrong to have relationships with people who have the same colour hair or some other arbitrary nonsense. If two people love each other and make each other happy then shouldn't we all be happy for them.

There is also a large body of evidence to suggest that homosexual preferences can often be genetic. I know some of you will argue this point, but how much effort have you put into investigating the facts before you start to condem? If it is the case that genetics play a part, then what kind of Lord are you worshiping? - he makes people the way they are, then punishes them for it. Anyway, whether it's genetic or not, to me is irrelevant. I am told by religious people that the Lord loves his people, but punishing them for being as they are and loving another person hardly seems to fit the description of a loving Lord.

[This message has been edited by Slappy (edited October 23, 2001).]

 

Slappy thanks for your comments. Homosexuality is something I had to deal with two years ago when my roomate came back from Spring Break and told me he had "discovered he was gay." Now he says it is genetics. We continued to live together for the rest of the semester but the next year he moved free-willingly to an apartment with friends. We still talk sometimes, it's a loose friendship with no hard feelings. So I don't discrimate against gay people. But I am a Christain and I sit back and I try to take this whole thing in. I know this: bottom line it doesn't matter what you've done, what you think you've done, what you didn't do, the point is you have to believe in and geniunely trust that God sent his son Jesus to save mankind and thus make it okay to say "it doesn't matter what you've done, what you think you've done, what you didn't do" becuase as long as you believe and trust that God did this and you love him back and as for forgiveness you are saved by God's grace and mercy. I hear it put like this a lot, "Grace is getting something you don't deserve and mercy is being spared from something you do deserve." And God has both, he is Loving, it is Satan that would have anyone to believe otherwise, being the jealous punk he is. We are people, humans with finite minds, our perceptions of God can easily be skewed. Just because we percieve something to be one way does not mean that is that way. I'll use your example as an example: If I percieve that homosexuals use genetics as an excuse because I hear and see many people say this, that homosexuals really do? Please think about this.

 

Slappy, it just depends on what your absolute is. For me, the Bible is Truth. There is absolutely no denying that it speaks against homosexuality. There's about a million other things that it talks about too. Pride's one of them. You could say that being proud doesn't hurt anybody, but that's not the point. The point is, it's against God's nature.

As to genetics, as you pointed out, there's still a good deal of controversy over that. There is no scientifically accepted study linking sexual orientation to genetics that I know of.

Now I'm going to be a bit harsh. I don't want to step on people's toes, but to say that homosexuality doesn't hurt anybody is simply false. The number one transmitter of AIDS by leaps and bounds is male homosexuality. The only other real contender is blood contamination (by transfusion or dirty needles). Typically, around 70% of all AIDS cases are transmitted by male to male intercourse.

I've been around homosexuals. I have a friend who struggles with it as a Christian. I also have a friend who is convinced that it is OK to be a homosexual. They know my views on homosexuality and respect me, as I also respect them. There are, after all, none of us perfect.