Opinions on Romances.

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I was just posting a comment in the current poll about gay romances in cRPGs when I realized that I was totally dissatisfied with the romances in BG2. I am a female gamer and mostly RP female characters who are straight, so of course my only "legit" option is Anomen. I romanced him my first time through the game, and it was like something out of a cheesy harlequin bodice-ripper (only without any bodice-ripping ). Anomen bugs me as a character, mostly because I can't take his pompous self-righteousness, and the romance bugs me twice as much as the actual character.

As for the ladies. The very idea of a Jaheira romance rubs me the wrong way. I understand that for gameplay reasons, things are sort of rushed, but I take real issues with a strong woman like Jaheira immediately getting involved with Charname just after her husband is brutally murdered.

Aerie annoys the crap out of me so I can't comment on that one.

Vikky...I like Vikky. A lot. But her romance? Just, no. Some dude was clearly working out his issues with women when he wrote that one. If it weren't so laughable it'd be sad. I was really disappointed by it, because like I said I really like Vikky, she's one of the few characters in that game I don't get Shut! UP! moments about. (I like most of the characters but most of them really need to stfu sometimes)

Sad to say but I think the fan-written romances I've seen are ten times better than the official ones. Sola is my favorite, because A) it's *romantic*, not sappy (I realize this is highly subjective), B) Sola has a life outside Charname and is not constantly worrying about what he/she thinks of him, C) the character is fascinating. I am currently playing with Kelsey, and though I only just started talking to him, I really like it so far. He seems realistic. And unlike Anomen, I don't want to kick him in the box.

I guess what makes me the maddest is that female characters always get shafted (no pun intended) in the romance department. I was really upset when I read somewhere that there was going to be a Haer'Dalis romance but they dropped it, 'cause I think he has the best lines besides Minsc and Edwina. That would have been fun. I can't imagine a romance with a female character getting dropped like that.

What do you all think about the romances in BG2, both official and fan-written?

 

I like Viconia... exotic. Jaheira is interesting though you made your point and I agree: Charname wouldn't get involved with her.
It's difficult to keep Aerie (I'm no goody-two-shoes) I never managed so far but hopefully my next character will -if he can-.

My advice: get Kelsey and Anomen together in your party and watch them...

 

Viccy is the best - I've always had a soft spot for her.

Aerie is annoying, but the romance gets interesting if you have Haer'D in your party as well. There is some good banter there. Otherwise it's all a bit too luvvy duvvy.

Jaheira is tedious. I love to have her in my party, but I never romance her anymore.

Of the fan based mods, I have only tried Delainy properly. I didn't get very far with the romance as I screwed it up with my Aerie romance, but as a character she is very interesting and great to have around.

I am just starting to play the Kitanya mod, and this looks interesting as well.

I think the fan based mods are just so much better and far more interesting. But, in the developers defence, the developers had time constraints and probably couldn't flesh the romances out as much as they'd like.

There do seem to be a few more male romances appearing from what I've seen.

 

Immy, Viccy, and Aerie; what more do you need for some four-party-fun?

Too bad that guys got the biggest slice from the cake, eh?

If they all were realistic, there would need to be realistic one-night-affairs too.

 

I don't think we can necessarily apply realism too much in this case, and the romance component of the game is purely optional. That said, as a male gamer, I think the game is biased strongly towards the male player (no real surprises, since designers are predominantly male). The fact that they dropped the Haer'Dalis romance is pretty naff, since Anomen is a complete prat and annoying as all hell. I'm also surprised that romancing Valygar wasn't an option for the ladies as well (but hey, there's a mod for that). I don't use romance mods, so I can't comment on any of them, although after reading this, maybe I'll give it a shot. The character of Kelsey annoys me, but I've heard nothing but good things about the mod.

At the risk of making enemies of everyone on this forum, Viconia is meant to be *the* fantasy romance - the strong, beautiful woman who has cut herself off from emotion because she can't afford to let her guard down. Paine, I think you hit the nail on the head about this one. While I think the full romance is questionable, having some sort of romantic interaction with Viconia is not (even if it's just her using the PC for sex, as any Drow female might). She really shouldn't be interested in a good-aligned PC; she's meant to be selfish and callous, attracted to power rather than sympathy.

To be completely honest, I think that the Jaheira romance is probably the most realistic of all of the ones included in the basic game. Sure, she's a strong-minded woman who has just lost her husband to a merciless sorcerer, but her entire life has been thrown into chaos. Khalid is dead, the Harpers are hunting her (and you), and the only person that she can turn to is the PC, since Imoen is in Spellhold and Minsc is... well, Minsc. It's only natural that the bond between Jaheira and the PC would become stronger as a result - the PC is basically all she has left. That wouldn't necessarily translate into a relationship, but it very easily could. I don't think it's 100% realistic, sure, but it's more plausible than the sappy rehab case (Aerie) or the fantasy woman (Viconia). At no point does she decide that everything in her life is about the PC, unlike Viconia, Anomen and Aerie.

 

Well, from another female gamer I'm with you all the way. I'm plowing through ToB with Anomen (I must have start this romance god knows how many times). I had to play a paladin before I could convince myself that this would EVER happen, and even then it's a stretch. He's annoying arrogant and I don't know anyone who'd put up with it for long.

Kelsey is a darling and I'm more than happy to romance him, particularly with Anomen in the party (very amusing)

Haven't done the drow thing yet, but he's on my to do list.

As for the women:

Aerie's so whiny I don't think I'll ever make it. Jaheira I have toruble with simply because unlike many BG1 fans I adored Khalid. Viconia's the only one I'm getting anywhere with, and I have trouble with that one too.


My first time through I didn't even bother with a romance I just imagined Haer'Dalis was hopelessly in love with the PC and let the game play itself out. I'd love to see someone restore that romance. Definitely worth it.

 

@wirhe
immy? eew dude, thats like some kind of brady bunch plot hehe

i only liked romancing viccy hehe. aerie was too sappy and boring to listen to, the background music was pleasant at least. Jaheira was a surprise as I had played BG1, but after the 1st time I didn't bother with her anymore.

 

If fantasy is more fun in a game like this, then it should come first. Players do not really have time or interest to ûber-long, ultra-realistic "romances" that are PITA even in the real life.

@ Enagonios

For some reason every time someone mentions "Imoen" and "romance" in one sentence, he gets a similar kind of response. (Speaking about a lacking area; Imoen really should had had that romance more than anything.)

 

imoen = half-sister < and you wonder why?

yeah, she could have, IF they refrained from making her a bhaalspawn as well

btw, PITA means?

 

Let's see.

I'm a man, and while I always have women in party-created RPGs like IWD and M&M (and I always arrange them as couples ), I never really got excited about RPing a female character in a one-character-at-startup CRPG, like BG. I of course might have considered trying it just for the romance if the only avaiable choice hadn't been Anomen - whom I incidentally never could have in my party for longer than 10 minutes real time.

The Aerie romance redefines the word *annoying*. She's so whiny and weak, so "you're the man, so you're the leader" that it makes me sick. I did manage to plow through the thing to the end, but it wasn't much fun. Not to mention the baby thing was completely ridiculous, though I admit it was kinda funny.

Jaheira is, if you exclude all the associated bugs, the most rewarding romance, IMO. It meshes in nicely with the Harpers quest, and since I had her in my party all the way through BG1 it was nice to see the relation evolving. I was never really bothered with the fact she lost her husband - face it, by the time it's obvious the relationship is advanced, months of game time will have passed. I don't find it so far-fetched that a half-elf (with therefore the passion that short-lived humans have for life), always on the road with Charname, would end up slowly developing deeper emotion for him. It's also interesting to see how shaken the once-proud and haughty woman (remember her sarcasms in BG1?) would become after losing her lover. Besides, I found the "confrontation" part in TOB to be truly poignant - much more so than with Aerie or Viconia, since Charname personally knew Khalid from BG1.

Finally, Viconia. I think I like her best (Jaheira's a close second though). It's interesting that she never really falls into whining (something Jaheira does on occasion), but instead verbally assaults Charname whenever she's in a bad mood. I also like the fact she lies - it makes her much more believable (otherwise why would a renegade Drow go around telling the truth?). My only real problem with the romance is that it isn't linked to anything in the outside world. With the exception of the Yochlol, nothing really *happens* during the romance. That was compensated by the alignment switch in TOB though - a really nice touch, as it makes you feel all your efforts have indeed yielded something.

I never tried any of the unofficial romances except for Nalia (which was flawed, and didn't really make me like her any more than I already did, which wasn't much). From all the good I've been hearing about Sola and Kelsey though, I might end up trying a female character, since it really seems to be worth it.

How about a romance mod with Jan?

 

Noooo! Not the "Imoen-is-your-sister" argument again...

I agree with Paine regarding how shallow Jaheira's personality is portrayed, especially when she starts hitting on Charname so shortly after her husband's death. The only reasons I romance her in the game are the extra quests and the XP. Otherwise, I am not particularly hard pressed to pursue any romance, simply because they give the impression of having been written by a 10 year old.
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Possible Spoiler for those who never romanced Aerie
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Am I the only one who thinks that the scene of Aerie giving birth was written by someone who still doesn't know how children are born?

 

Immy is not your half-sister. Being bred by a god who can from his side give any number of different genes to his offspring, hardly makes you siblings. Say Charname is a dwarf and Immy is human, how much of a sister could she be there? Divine intervention, the normal mortal laws no longer apply. The only thing connecting your semi-sibling bond with Imoen is the divine power which you share.

The very idea of Imoen romance is very intriguing to me. If the actual mod was less obscene, not so littered with errors in English grammar, and generally would fit the style of BG2 more, then I'd be a happy gamer indeed.

If I'd have to put the romances in order, it'd be like this:
-Tashia
-Jaheira
-Viconia
-Aerie
-Imoen

Tashia was a masterpiece. As I said in another thread, she very much reminded me of a girl I once knew. Always throwing pranks and witty remarks and sarcasm at my direction, yet always carrying a deeper meaning behind each of those seemingly light-hearted remarks.

I played Jaheira for the first time only after I got the flirtpacks, before then it'd bugged (well surprise) and I couldn't go on. The flirtpacks really added to her, and of the ready romances she was definitely the most realistic. She had her problems, but overall she was like a unique woman. Not like the whining Aerie, or the psychotic Viconia.

Viconia was... interesting. She was a real tard in the beginning, definitely one that I'd not involve myself with in real life. But during the course of the adventure and while getting to ToB side, she changed significantly for the better. A drow woman indeed.

Arie was initially my greatest "love-interest". She was elven, angelic even (cliché, yes). Her voice was clear and sweet, and she had the sort of innocence that I appreciate in a woman. But too much is too much. Her crying about her fate wasn't a problem in the beginning. But sooner or later she would start to come off more as a child than someone equal you could love.

And then Imoen. ***spoiler***
Her voice was incredible, her face more beautiful than anyone else's. And she'd been with you since the beginning of your days. The only person to truly know you. One who was your friend before you ever knew of your true heritage, and one who would remain as such after you did. The base for this romance was perfect. But the romance mod... While I loved many of the original musical pieces coming with the romance, the dialogue went way overboard. Swearing never fit in to BG2. Not just that either. Imoen to my mind will always be a kind-hearted spirited young woman who, dispite her thiefly profession, would never stoop to swearing, picking fights, wooing and lying to and stealing from her friends. Besides which, I didn't like the part of her being raped at all.

Granted, BG2 isn't exactly a game for children. But to make a romance with (more than softcore) sex and violence and brutality, involving probably *the* most important person to Charname, is just... twisted.

Overall, BG2 is still the only game to feature proper romances. And the flirtpacks add to them immensely (I can't thank the people who made it enough, no-one can). No other game is as complete, as unlinear, and as immersive in its possible romances as BG2. As a matter of fact, I don't remember a game that really even had them, save as a forced part of the plot. Or as a 10 seconds worth of dialogue like in Fallout 2 or TToEE, with no emotion and realism involved at all.

 

If you're at all interested in what the industry thinks of this, I recommend checking out the article I wrote on the subject earlier this year for Gaming Industry News:

Click here

Includes commentary from Bioware, Troika, and others.

 

pardon my ignorance, but when does this happen? unmodded?

 

No, that is a plot element of Mirrabbo's Imoen Romance.

 

There's a Valygar romance mod? I never take him in my group (my favorite character to play is a Stalker ranger so he'd be kinda redundant). I may have to give that a try.

Ya know, I don't get the Immy romance thing. I know they aren't blood related, and I think it's kinda silly to make that argument against romancing Immy especially in light of ToB. Bhaal was a rollin' stone, as the song goes...if it was blood relation and not simply a spiritual thing half the characters in ToB would be related to you. ^^; For some reason the idea still squicks me, though. I think it's because I always saw the charname/Immy relationship as big sibling/little sibling. Kinda like a Han/Luke sort of thing (and I know those fics exist...they bug me too ;_. But hey, whatever floats yer boat. I would like to try the Immy romance once just for giggles, because I like to try out lots of different mods for variety. If it's focused on a sweet childhood romance type of thing rather than freaky monkey sex ala Vikky, I think I'd have less of a problem with it. I dunno, I've never played the mod so I won't judge it until I've played it.

A Jan romance would be great, if played strictly for laughs (I'm utterly incapable of taking Jan seriously). The idea of him trying to woo a female gnome with his crazy stories is comedy gold.

 

Shush now; Imoen is the most popular NPC of BG2, so that kind of talk is wasted here.

Don't; it's not worth the trouble. The mod is simply designed badly.

 

I think you summed up what bothers me about the Viconia romance, Beren. Redemption through love is probably my favorite theme, and all my favorite characters experience that to some degree.

I've never played an evil male PC, so the only side to the Viconia romance I've seen is the "redemption" track, and it bugs. Vikky's a priestess of Shar, and if I remember Faiths & Avatars correctly, there are no good aligned Sharites, and that makes romance with a good aligned PC even more implausible. To add to what Beren said, not only are we supposed to believe she develops a conscience and an appreciation for emotional intimacy, but that she is also willing to turn her back on her faith for Charname. There's too much "telling" and not enough "showing" with that, IMO. I think a redemption type of romance would be less problematic if Vikky wasn't a cleric, and they focused on developing her character a bit more so it's not so stark a jump between Sadistic!Vikky and Good!Vikky. We need more Conflicted!Vikky. I think the problem is ToB is just too short to really get into any kind of substantial character development.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think a Sarevok redemption romance could work and be really fascinating if handled with the utmost of care. Considering the history between Sarevok & Charname there would be some considerable hurdles to overcome, but I think if written properly it could be really good--the greatest rivalries are often dripping with sexual tension (Spike & Buffy for instance). The only problem is I think ToB is just too short for such a romance to be handled properly...Sarevok would need too much character development and there's not enough time. Otherwise I think there's too much danger of it degenerating into S7 Spike & Buffy, with Charname whining to the other characters, "But he has a soooooul now!"

Oh well, it least it could make an interesting fanfic.

(Edited because I got my FR Deity sourcebooks mixed up.)

[ August 21, 2004, 19:30: Message edited by: Paine ]

 

/me high-fives Beren back
(does that mean we're exchanging moderator privileges? )

I never quite thought of the Harper plot as both helping and imperiling the romance, but now that you mention it it does make sense. And to add one more argument in support of the romance, remember it is THE slowest romance (unmodded) in the game. Unless you know after which dialogs you have to sleep to advance it (and remembering you have to sleep outdoors), it does take an awfully long time to proceed - easily months.

I don't quite agree with you on Viconia's romance, Beren. Viconia doesn't develop a conscience just because of the PC - remember, she's already an outcast, hated by (and hateful of) Lloth, and desperately trying to live a "normal" life on the surface (and constantly failing, because she's regarded as en Evil Drow). Comes along a Good- or Neutral-aligned PC, who (if you're careful with dialog choices) shows strength (something she admires) without compromising his "goodness". Someone who shows her a way of life different from that of the Underdark, which she's trying to get away from as much as possible. And finally, there's also the fact the PC is the first person who forces her to look into her emotions past lust. Over the course of SOA+TOB, I find it reasonable that she would have changed her view of things (again, remember an entire year might have passed).

Oh, and I TOTALLY agree with you as far as the "wings" are concerned