Opinions Wanted: Fighter/Thieves

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I'm not quite the hardcore AD&D'er that many of you on this board are, so I don't have the knowledge or numbers to figure out which is the best "fighter/thief" class. Basically, I want to start a BG2 game where my protagonist has adequate enough thieving abilities to be the only thief in the group and still have enough tanking abilities to be a competent secondary fighter.

As I see it, my options are:
Swashbuckler:
pros: somewhat better AC than normal thief, gets weapon specialization (essential for frontline fighting in my experience..), considered a pure thief (not multi or dual) and gets full thief ability points for every level (up to the cap of 23+)
cons: no backstab ..backstab is so fun.., also the dual wield bonus doesn't excite me too much because i'd like for this character to be able to use a ranged weapon, and juggling the inventory like that is a pain..also, doesn't get exceptional strength..

Fighter/Thief (multiclass):
pros: here is where I need some help -- will a multiclass fighter/thief get better HP & AC than a swash? I'm not good enough at math. Also gets specialization, can reach level 13/16 which gives a BS multiplier of 5x.
cons: thief abilities will cap at level 16, less than that of a swash.

Thief(9)/Fighter(20) (dual class):
pro: gets 4x BS multiplier, and gets fighter masteries. Also, my understanding is that for the first 9 (thief) levels, he gets rogue hit dice. Beyond that, its fighter d10 hitdice.
con: fairly low thief abilities at 9, not sure if they'd be enough to have decent trap/lock abilities as well as stealth.. also, thief abilities inactive while waiting for fighter to reach lvl 10...

fighter(9)thief(22)
pro: can achieve mastery in a weapon, gets 22 levels worth of thief abilities, gets thief 5x bs multiplier
con: fighter hitdice for the first 9 levels, rogue hitdice thereafter...

So what's the best, "most powerful" option. Which of the 4 above combinations results in the character with the best AC? The best HPs? The best offense abilities (DMG, THAC0, and number of attacks)? And most importantly, which is the most fun?

Appreciate your feedback!

 

Ah.. as I read more I think I'm beginning to understand more about how hitdice works and all (go figure ).

It seems like the first 10 levels of the character are the most critical in terms of gaining hitpoints -- a warrior who rolls a d10 can reach level 9 with anywhere between 9 and 90 HPs, with the average being 50. A rogue on the other hand, rolls a d6 and at level 9 is somewhere between 9 and 54, with the average being 32. This is according to the tables in the manual (Iread the manual just now, a personal first woohoo).

Beyond level 10, warriors gain a fixed 3 hp per level, whereas rogues gain a fixed 2 hp, if I'm reading this table correctly. That is not such a big difference. means going from level 10 to 20 as a warrior nets you 30 HPs, whereas going from level 10 to 20 as a thief nets you 20 -- not a huge difference really.

In light of these numbers, it seems like if it's hitpoints you're after, you're better off using the fighter as the first class.

However, I know that there are other benefits to taking fighters beyond level 10 besides their HP -- I know that their THAC0 improves at a rate better than any other class, and they also gain additional attacks. But I don't see any tables to quantify those skills anywhere in the manual..

 

I took a fighter theif mc thru BG, BG2 and IWD and he was a good char. Just don't rely on him as front line, equip him with a bow or crossbow and fire from the second line, and use a TH/L sword in emergencies.

 

The most deadliest fighter/class is the dule kensai/theif.

A kensai get +1 to hit/damage for every 3 level, and they also have kai abilities to inflict MAX damage with the chosen weapon.

The kensai/theif might not have good AC, but they can normally finish off their opponents with a single backstab, inflicting possible damage of 50-100 or more.

 

I think the best thief is actually a dualclassed thief with grandmastery in his prime weapon. I prefer the dc fighter-thiefs I took through BG-1 (lvl-6 fighter, lvl-* thief).
Since you´re starting new I´d recommend to dual your fighter as early as possible, at lvl 8 or 9. I wouldn´t wait longer for you´d like to enjoy playing him and not want to wait for him to finish the dualclassing process in Sulandesalar to emerge as the ultimate killer in the last fights.

The alternative of dualling from thief to fighter is ununderstandable for me since you only get quadruple backstabb and very restricted thieving abilities.

As a good fighting pure thief, I´d choose the swashbuckler for his THACO improves like a fighers and he will reach lvl-23 finally (unlike the lvl-19 of a fighter). In that case I´d choose an elf or a halfling for their dex-19, also advantageous since you like to use ranged weapons like short bow or light crossbow too.
Additionally you can enjoy the race boni on thieving abilities. Just don´t mix the swashbuckler up with a real fighter due to his excellent THACO (close to a kensai). His AC is still relatively low and he´s vulnerable with blunt and missile weapons when wearing leather armor or elven chainmail. If you use him that way, he´ll ned a good pair of boots of speed

The low strength of pure thiefs can be overcome with the varoius strength enhacers in the game (girdles, gauntlets). And the lack of backstabbing can be at least partly compensated using the potions of invisibility. And even when you can´t backstabb, you´ll still hit first when attacking from stealth.

Good fun

 

Hmm. crunched some more numbers from an AD&D faq I found on this site and here's what I came up with:

Swashbuckler:
--------------
Max level: 23
615 thief ability points
** max specialization
7 total accumulated proficiency points
60 average base HP
+18 bonus con HP (con 16-18)
78 average total HP
AC Bonus: +1 every 5, for a total of +5 at 23
number of attacks: 1 (never rises)
THAC0: -1 every 2 levels
THAC0 max: -11 obtained at level 22
backstab multiplier: 0
lore: 69

Multiclass Fighter/Thief:
----------------------
Max level: 13/16
440 thief ability points
** max specialization
8 total accumulated proficiency points
51 average base HP
+36 bonus con HP (con 18)
87 average total HP
AC Bonus: none
number of attacks: progresses from 1->1.5->2
THAC0: -1 every fighter level
THAC0 max: -13 obtained at level 13/16
backstab multiplier: 5x
lore: 48

Dual Class Fighter/Thief:
--------------------
Max level: Fighter(9)/Thief(22)
590 thief ability points
***** max specialization
12 total accumulated proficiency points
84 average base HP
+36 bonus con HP (con 18)
120 average total HP
AC Bonus: none
number of attacks: peaks at 1.5
THAC0 max: -15
backstab multiplier: 5x
lore: 66


Conclusion:
It looks like in BG2, a Dual Class Fighter/Thief is far and away the most powerful choice. Reasons:

- Being a pure fighter for those first 9 character levels and then switching over to thief gives your character significantly more HP than a pure thief (swash) or a multiclass.

- A Dual fighter/thief switched over at level 9 can reach thief level 22, just one shy of what a pure thief can reach. This means that the Dual thief can enjoy nearly all the same lore and thief ability benefits as a pure thief.

- A Dual fighter/thief gets a nice 5x backstab multiplier, a swash does not.

- A Dual fighter/thief gets 3/2 attacks per round. A swash is stuck at 1, which can be a drag when using a single weapon. A multiclass can eventually reach 2 attacks per round just before he hits the XP cap.

- A Dual fighter/thief accumulates the most proficiency points over his career, and in addition, can reach mastery+ proficiency. The xp cap prevents a multiclass character from overtaking the dualclass character in this category.

- A dual class fighter/thief gets the best THAC0 at the end of the game. The xp cap prevents a multiclass character from overtaking the dualclass character in this category.

Summary: At the very end of the game, a multiclass fighter/thief will hit level 13/16 and become one of the best offensive fighter/thief combo -- he will enjoy the fighter 13+ benefit of 2 attacks per round as well as the thief 5x backstab multiplier. However, until that point, his offensive capabilities are exactly the same as those of a dualclass fighter/thief. Meanwhile, the dualclass fighter/thief can reach noticably higher thief abilities, higher lore, and have much more HPs. It's no contest there.

As for swash, no backstab & only 1 attack per round makes his offensive abilities pale in comparison. His only real advantage is having a +5 AC bonus over the other two classes by the end of the game. However, that gap could be negated should the fighter/thief (multi or dual) choose to temporarily wear some plate armor for a real rough fight, not to mention the fact that all fighter/thieves can wear helmets at all times.

Dual class fighter-thief all the way, baby!

 

Please also consider the Swashbuckler/Fighter dc level 10/19:

Best base THACO: -19 (for fighter levels)
Enough Thief points to feel comfortable in the game (around 300)
12(!!) proficiency points!
***** max specialisation
AC bonus +3
To Hit and To Dam bonus: +3 (or was it +2?)
30 average base HP for the thief
+20 bonus HP for Con (thief class)
+27 bonus HP for Fighter levels after 10
77 average total HP
number of attacks: 1->1,5->2
no backstab, but heh, can't have it all
lore: approx 35

All in all with items, my S/F had 97 HP, his THACO when hidden in Shadows was at -20 (no kidding), his AC went as low as -22 (see other thread), he had 100 skills in Traps, Locks and Hide in Shadows.

 

numbers numbers...man...

how bout this...

go for half elf fighter thief mage..

u can specialise in locks and stealing and practically open any non magical lock and steal anything from the merchants... get some for traps to... to disarm those traps...duuhhh

then u have ur fighter... should be able to use a shield and any weapon.... any fighting style u choose... u should be quite good at it...

then u can cast spells.. like for those real hard battles... let minsc or someone else go forward while u cast web and fog and then take them down with arrows and crossbows...

 

Yeah, but you will be just mediocre at all your classes.

 

Very nice work, boogie!


A Fighter-11/Mage-12/Thief-14 is good, but IMO more attuned for soloing than being the protagonist in a normal party.
If you like to play a non-human race then this is excellent but a human dual classed thief will be a more useful character... as shown by boogie and Modjahed.

 

Indeed, very good work Boogie!

I als prefer the dc fighter thief. However, the fighter-mage-thief ia sloso a great char class, a real universalist, but, due to the x-cap, only mediocre in most ways. So using he x-cap-remover becomes especially interesting on this char.
By playing him through with a 4 person party (or playing him through twice) he would be an excellent char in the end, but still inferior to a fighter-mage/ thief-mage/ fighter-thief.
He offers a tempting combination: ** fighting skills, backstabbing and magic ... basically posessing all the abilities I´d like to have in BG-2.

 

*curses everyone who look at numbers and runs off to play BG2 with his new halfling berserker*

 

Remember, my criteria for this character was I wanted it to be one who could satisfy all the thieving needs for my party as well as contribute some respectable front-line fighting.

To summarize the 4 options:

(A) Swashbuckler
(B) Multiclass Fighter(13)/Thief(16)
(C) Dualclass Fighter(9)/Thief(22)
(D) Dualclass Swash(10)/Fighter(19)

Why (C) is better than (A):
---------------------------------
AC: A
Thief Skils: A (Barely)
Backstab: C
No. of attacks: C
THAC0: C
No. of prof *'s: C
HPs: C
Other: C - can wear plate, helmets, A can't, nor can A get exceptional strength

Summary: It's a no-brainer. For the +5 AC bonus, Swash's get no backstab, much weaker offense (no masteries, lower thaco, fewer attacks per round), much fewer HPs, and no ability to equip helmets or plate armor. Option (C) is a much more powerful character.

Why (C) is better than (B):
------------------------------
AC: Same
Thief Skils: C
Backstab: Same
No. of attacks: B
THAC0: C
No. of prof *'s: C
HPs: C

Summary: Again, a no brainer. The only advantage a multiclass gets over the (C) dualclass is the extra 1/2 attack per round, and he only gets that at the very end of the game when his fighter half reaches level 13. Meanwhile, he gets nearly 200 less thief ability points, no weapon masteries, a worse THAC0, and much worse HPs. (C) is way better.

Why (C) is better than (D):
---------------------------
AC: D
Thief Skils: C
Backstab: C
No. of attacks: D
THAC0: D
No. of prof *'s: Same
HPs: C

Summary: Straight melee, (D) is better than (C). Slightly better THAC0, an extra .5 attack per round, and +3 AC bonus. But it's debatable whether those things are worth giving up the 5x backstabs for. And then when you figure that (C) gets much more HPs and far superior thief abilities, (C) begins to look like the more powerful character.

However, (D) is definately a nice tank character. He is virtually as powerful in melee as a regular fighter and even gets a better AC (though fewer HPs). And 290 thief ability points is certainly enough to cover the essentials (locks and traps).

But for my group my brother will be playing an Inquisitor, which should satisfy our tanking needs. The improved thieving abilities (590) of character (C) is nothing to sneeze at (good stealth, trap setting, and pick pockets). And backstabbing is just so darned fun.

Anyway, my mind is made up, time to start rolling the dice and making the character =)