Pat Tillman: Atheist in the foxhole

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Will edit this later with links but I was just now reading numerous articles on the web about Pat Tillman, the former Arizona Cardinals LB who gave up a career in pro-football to fight in Afghanistan and died in the line of duty.

Seems that, what none of the conservatives who were fawning over this story were telling you weas that Tillman was an atheist, humanist adn free thought advocate. Interesting to say the least.
The reason I mention this here is that, at BoM and AoDA amongst other places when this storybroke, Tillman's sacrifies was being touted as ammunition in support of all manner of conservative and Christian gobbledigook.


EDIT: Here is the story.

Kind of funny that one of the most famous representatives from the "foxhole" was an atheist!

[ May 09, 2005, 17:45: Message edited by: RuneQuester ]

 

Obviously someone didn't do their homework. Whatever any Aetheist does or believes that coincides with Christianity is a welcome coincidence.

 

The fact that Tillman was not a Christian only matters if the war in Iraq is about or founded on religion, or is the real agenda of the coalition.

Are you trying to imply that this is a holy war between Christianity and Islam? That President Bush is in reality trying to destroy the religion of Allah?

 

Well he did say that he was on a crusade against terrorism.

Seriously though I fail to see the importance of this incident and the fact that the guy was an atheist. Surely an atheist can support the war in iraq just as well as a christian?

 

So by showing an Aetheist giving his life for his country, it adds political legitimacy to George W. Bush's little beef with Iraq. If an Aetheist is supporting this, then it's not just about Religeon...

 

I think Runequester's point is meant to be ironic. It's not that Tillman supported a religious war, if he did; or a "War on Terrorism", if he did; or joined from motives of patriotism, if that's what he did; or simply wanted to see some action.

RQ's point is that an atheist has become something of a poster boy for the religious right, who do, according to the latest reports, support Mr. Bush and his war.

 

I am sure that there are lots of athiests supporting 'the war on terror'. After all, Muslims are fighting for the US side also, so I think this was never a 'religious war'. Of course certain US generals are raving about 'hunting satan' and other crap...

BTW wasn't Pat Tillman shot by fellow soldiers and his family were told that it was Afghans that killed him?

 

Exactly Cernak. I am not surer how all that other crap erupted here but my point is that when Tillman's story broke, even I thoguht he was a conservative Christian because all over the net(includiong THESE boards!) conservative Christians wehre bringing up Pat Tillman and saying things like "At LEAST you liberals can respect his sacrifice!?" as if we were on some witch hunt against US soldiers or something. It was further ironic because I don't think these people(like Hackenslash IIRC) would have been on this wagon if they knew that Tillman was such a staunch atheist and freethought advocate adn that his own brother tore preachers a new one at Pat's funeral for disgracing his mmemory by asserting his place with God and such nonsense.

 

Hmm, maybe this means that "Conservative Christians" care about things other than just the dead guy on the cross.

The Tillman story was a patriotic feel good story. How many times do you hear about a rich guy making good money, standing to make even more money, who selflessly decides to serve and give his life for his country?

Is it surprising that patriots were inspired by the story? Is it surprising that these same patriots were horrified by the "anti war" crowd who felt that he got what he deserved?

The fact that he was an atheist has nothing to do with it.

 

I'm slowly getting tired of the strange set-up which makes it proper for critics to associate all sorts of derogatory epressions with God, Christianity or Catholicism while saying the exact same about any given religion or ideology is regarded as a sign of being backwards and rock-headed.

But more in topic, as Gnarfflinger says, it is always a welcome occurence when an atheist does or beliefs something in accordance with Christian beliefs. The same can be said about Islam. We believe in the same merciful God and much the same Scripture. Both religions are of peace, despite the bad use continously made of them over the history. It is only an opportunity for joy if we happen to agree on something and no hostility is necessary. There is no holy war. Holy war sounds like an oxymoron. It may well be a holy act to pick up arms in just defence of others but war itself is always a gruesome necessity.

You don't know the ways in which some people who were atheists have taught me about the faith, the good and right, or even strengthened me in my own faith. Ever heard an atheist telling a Christian to believe? I have. I was that Christian.

[ May 09, 2005, 18:24: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I have never looked at the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq to be about religeon, but about bringing rogue states to heel. And after 9/11, That has become a higher priority. These rogue states are perceived as a threat to national security, and the US has got off their ass and done something about it. Right or wrong, I'm not going to touch, and I suspect would be off topic, but the fact that the Late Mr. Tillman was an aetheist may take religeon our of that war...

 

I have never thought of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars as being religious wars either so I don't know why this keeps popping up.

@Chev': As for the ambiguous rant...I don't even want to guess at what you are talking about. I am betting it is more "Why are WE backwards for hating/attacking the civil liberties of homosexuals/atheists/women/whomever, but you guys can criticize religion without being called "backwards"?". If that is what you are on about then I will rest my case and let you sort it out on your own. But let's stay on topic because I have been warned about this sort of thing myself and it seems that you and I are of a 5% of posters who go off-topic in debates here so let's stop before stuff gets deleted.

Tillman did NOTHING in accordnace with Christian beliefs. Nice try. He behave according to PAT TILLMAN'S beliefs(which were atheistic).

I see you went off-topic a second time within a single post. Perhaps you did not get the memo. I do not care at all about how any alleged atheists might have shaped your faith. Truly, these anecdotes bore me.

My point about Tillman was that, when everyone thought he was a good Christian soldier(some priests even showed up to preach at his funeral and were scolded harshly by Tillman's brother for their disrespect), his story was spreading across the news like wildfire adn every MB I went to had a topic started by a conservative Christian(not a Catholic BTW so keep your tights on) lauding Tillman's sacrifice and chastising everyone from leftist protesters(which is consistent and probably correct thing to do to some extent or the other as many protesters are spouting off silliness) to the mythical "non-foxhole dwelling atheists"(which is what got my socks knotted).

But when it was revealed that PAt Tillman was an atheist, the media in general(as they always do when some admirable person comes out as an atheist) tried to sweep this under the rug adn the conservative Christiasn who became aware of this were no longer even mentioning Tillman's name!

This thread was not intended to attack any religion. It was a commentary on some hypocritical behavior.

 

I don't think they swept his being an atheist under rug at all. It was more a case of nobody caring (which would probably make an atheist happy). Now if he had been gay, that would have been something. That would have been all over the place. You have to remember that atheists have a bad reputation. Most people think of them as people who don't believe in anything. The fact that one did believe in something (even if it wasn't a God) was considered a good thing not a bad thing. Never forget that the only news with legs is bad news.

 

Snook: This would be correct if not for the fact that FOx NEws adn conservative Christians were the ones trying to appropriate Tillman's sacrifice as fuel for their own agenda. Once his atheism came out, the mainstream media(including Fox News) did not report it(the way that EVERY DAY someone's "faith in God" is being reported as enabling them to do one thing or another).

I mean, all things considered, the fact that Christian preachers showed up at his funeral adn tried to disrespect him but were blasted by his family members for doing so should have been a story but NO ONE wants to do the "atheist as hero" story the way they want to do the "Christian as hero" story.

I DO wish things were as you would characterise them. That one's theism or atheism just never came up. That we could simply report that Joe Smith sacrificed and accomplished this or that without even getting into Joe's religious beliefs. But what we get is not only Joe's Christianity but the continual "There are no atheists in foxholes" nonsense, ad infinitum.

When Tillman's atheism came out, his story disappeared.

 

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.

Why should the family being upset about Christian preachers showing up at his funeral be a news story? The only reason I can think of is if someone wanted to paint the Christian preachers in a bad light. Is this news that people needed to know or is it something to make the "Anti-Christian Preacher" crowd go "tee-hee"?

I'm sorry for being flippant, but I think you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

This whole Athiest versus Christian thing sure gets old. The comment 'welcome coincidence' is rather conceited on the part of christians (not targetting Gnarlfinger -- it is a common belief). Most people in America (and the world for that matter) are raised with the same value system. We share the same upbringing of what is wrong and what is right. It is entirely unremarkable and certainly NOT a coincidence that 99%+ of our beliefs coincide with each other.

Personally, using Tillman as a soapbox for either side is a travesty. He died with dignity, fighting against those who attacked his homeland.

 

T2Bruno,

I do not feel targetted by your response. I am questioning the common upbrining in America today. There are things taught in worldly circles and families that aren't actively religeous that are not in line with Religeous teaching. Attitudes towards Alcohol, Drugs and pre or extra marital sex have shifted over the last several generations. While Religeon teaches that these things are not always right, they are accepted in other circles. Even the basics like honesty and integrity are neglected in some circles and families.

As a Religeous person, I am embarrassed by the preachers that held up Mr. Tillman as a poster child for their faith without realizing that he was not one of the faithful. That was wrong.