Patches, mods, ect. What order do they go in? Which are needed?

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I think there's some order you need to go in with Weimer mods.

Also, which mods/patches are essential for someone playing BG2/ToB.

 

Other then the official patches, I use baldurdash fixpack. Weidu mods can be installed in any order if i'm not mistaken, as long as they are installed after non-weidu mods

 

There's only 1 official patch, right?

 

Yup. Which you can get from SP

 

The oft-repeated standard order:
Game
Patch
Baldurdash
Non-Weidu mod
Weidu mods

Weidu mods generally are ok with each other. There are somethimes installation order requirements, which will be listed in the Readme. Generally tweak mods should be installed later on.

I'd advise the following as basic mods if you do not wish to go mod-heavy:
Flirt Pack
Banter Pack
Selected components of Ease-of-Use
Kelsey NPC

There are more, but those are a baic few. You'll likely be told that EoU is no longer needed as it is in some other download, but it is up to you which you use.

 

You're probably better off using the BG2 Fixpack over Baldurdash, barring a pathological aversion to it.

I don't consider the oft-repeated install order all that helpful because there's no reason you should be installing anything non-WeiDU these days anyway. Typically, install content mods first, and "tweak" mods later, since the latter will often modify the former.

Yes. Similarly, it's your choice if you prefer Windows 3.1 over Windows XP, but in good conscience I can only recommend the newer version, when in this case would be the BG2 Tweak Pack at http://www.gibberlings3.net/

 

A few notes:
Certain mods still require or recommend Baldurdash over Fixpack. Furthermore, as we know, Fixpack is a different style (more tweaks) than BD.

As for non-WeiDU mods, there are still some so it's exaggerating to say that there is no reason to install them: there are still many people who play them. So I can confirm that the general order specified by Decados is valid and accurate. (Of course some "non-standard" mods might be required to be inserted to it in certain cases.)

 

I'm not sure anything else in the world does.

It's really a total mystery to me how or why "we know" this.

Hands up guys!

[ October 07, 2006, 04:22: Message edited by: SimDing0 ]

 

And that's a reason not to warn about it?

*Raises hand*

 

The G3 Fixpack is a much more comprehensive pack than Baldurdash, and does not include the one or two dubious changes which Baldurdash made (e.g. the Guarded Compound rogue stone, neither present in the original game nor mentioned as something intended but missing). I would definitely recommend the Fixpack over Baldurdash, as would most modern modders.

 

I don't think that it has much to do with modernism. G3 site's BG2 Fixpack makes several arbitrary changes to the game (which are not optional) and some of us modders don't think that those changes are correct. What is certain is that they can at best be called "Tweaks" rather than "Fixes".

Hence, even though G3's fixpack is (or may be) compatible with our mods, we still recommend Baldurdash over G3's BG2 Fixpack, for sure.

PS: And yes, I remember that you have said that you have an open mind to suggestions, but I'm talking about the current BG2 Fixpack, not about what it may be in the future.

[ October 07, 2006, 15:11: Message edited by: Sikret ]

 

Exactly.

I'm just trying to be unbiased. I never say "come and play BlackWyrm mods only", I say "come and try out this mod if you are interested". I never say "Come and play Baldurdash" or "Come and play BG2 Fixpack". Instead, I say "They differ from the following aspects, choose whichever meets your expectations better".
I've never liked to bring modding stuff here to these great gaming forums, but now I feel it's important to tell: when certain modders imply things such as "no one plays non-WeiDU mods", "there is no reason to play non-WeiDU mods" or (not in this thread though) "this mod will break your game", it's often their (site's) interest to spread such things, even if these statements are not true or not accurate. The reason is simple. These sites' portfolio consists of (good and professionally made) WeiDU-based mods. We love these mods, no doubt. Many of these are smaller projects, which are usually installed together. So if there is one mod that does not follow their conventions (and thus might mean direct or indirect incompatibility), it means "danger" to all these mods. In other words, these modders represent certain "mainstream" modding, and if anyone dares to do something that doesn't suit this "mainstream", a counter-action, or even a big anti-campaign, is started against the mod -- and thus maybe burying a talented modder's innovative ideas in a new future mod. In other words, this is dictation, disguised under "we're representing the interests of players.".
Now, two practical examples.

1. "there's no reason you should be installing anything non-WeiDU these days anyway".
Why? There are some mods that are still non-WeiDU (i.e. were not converted). What if a talented modder releases a non-WeiDU mod because he has no time to learn WeiDU for the time being? Should his work be buried before any player would actually play it and judge it?
So I say: "feel free to install a non-WeiDU mod if you wish, because if you keep the installation order, it can't break your game or other mods."
Do you notice the mainstream's influence? It has a good side: it encourages modders to learn WeiDU-supported development and distribution, and causes mods to follow certain standards. On the other hand, if all non-WeiDU mods are considered as invalid, bad, discouraged, then players will refuse non-weidu by principle (this is already happening), and modders who can't learn weidu for the time being but have ideas, will give up modding.
(I know of at least one newer non-weidu mod, which author received positive feedback, and the mod has cca. 380 downloads at the moment. Otherwise, it's in conversion to weidu.)
Finally, let's not forget: A properly documented well-written non-weidu mod, installed at the correct time, does not include more risk than a well-written WeiDU-based mod.

2. Anti-campaigns. The best example was the Improved Anvil. When it was first released, certain "mainstream" modders wanted to force their will on Sikret to make changes on his mod. These changes would have decreased the quality of IA, but would have also ceased certain modders' "incompatibility" fears. Since Sikret successfully resisted the pressure and kept the quality of IA, certain modders started to spread malevolent lies, such as "IA not only makes undocumented changes, it refuses to provide documentation, and it attempts to build in deliberate incompatibilities with other mods". The latter one was told on a very popular IE forum, and immediately frightened away one player (and probably lots of others who read the thread). Do we need this cr**? Do we need the fight? Why can't just all modders be in peace, and accept that everything can't be sacrificed just to complete the statement of "every mod is compatible with every mod"?! This is not profit-oriented competition, this is supposed to be FUN!!
Why can't you accept that if a,b,c are e.g. my mods, and x, y, z are yours, then it's not compulsory to alter b if it's incompatible with x: players can play a,c,x,y,z, and then during another game, a,b,c,y,z!!!
(Yeah, instead of prohibiting all non-weidu mods, let's admit that *one* can be installed at the same time. Yeah, instead of "BD is obsolete, no reason to use it anywhere", the following can be said: "This mod of mine requires Fixpack. [So others might still support or require BD.]")

To readers: I apologize to those who felt this very off-topic, but after reading SimDing0's tactless and arrogant post, I thought I would clarify the source of all this "fight" to the SP readers.

So hereby, I ask SimDing0 and all others who represent the "mainstream", to be so kind and show more tolerance and respect to the work of those who have different opinion than you.

You promote what you wish on your sites, but please let's keep this beautiful and useful place clean of any biased, "political" statements. Thank you.

 

I've seen you play this "ulterior motive" card before. I don't buy it. The fixpack is a cross-community project, not associated with any single site. I think you do us all a great injustice to suggest that we're insidiously manipulating public opinion for our own ends.

I'm not sure why it's hard to believe that I am, in fact, doing my best to give people the best information I can. No, I can't judge someone else's preferences, but I feel my experience in modding places me in a good position to give useful advice relating to mods, rather than a neutral "each to their own--pick whatever sounds good to you" response.

Well, the primary answer would be "because they can't be reliably uninstalled". Barring that, the fact that the bulk of remaining non-WeiDU mods are now unsupported?

Rousing. I invite the casual reader to consider whether compatibility is a good or a bad thing to strive for.

I respect your opinion. I just think it's wrong.

This, I'll gladly do. But you seem to be asking me to keep it clear of meaningful advice, which I don't believe is a good plan. Do you want every "what are your recommended mods?" thread to consist entirely of "well, why not give them all a fair chance!" While beautifully politically correct, this is hardly a recommendation.

 

I've recently installed a lot of mods (mostly from G3 and WeiDu), and until yesterday I've had no problems with the order. Overall, most mods are pretty well integrated with each other. What broke the camel's back, so to say, was uninstalling a component of one module, in my case the IWD spell graphics. The problem started with the combination of optimizing attack animations and a 1-handed staff version (from Underrepresented items, Caballus' staff) - every third attack would crash the game. I uninstalled the spell graphics, as I didn't know what was crashing the game at first, and then the trouble began. I started missing icons of spells from my spellbook, and the descriptions went wrong. I tried reinstalling everything, but it only made things worse, and now I basically can't manage my character's spellbooks.

Does anyone know of any feature that safely removes mods and mod components? I'd rather not reinstall the entire game, as I've given my SoA CDs to a friend and he's in another university now.

 

*Raises hand again*

Um, bullsh*t? I make sure every mod I make details which files are involved, and I tell people about the hazards, even advising them how to use the content of one mod without "installing" it. And if you're going to go back to "bulk" to prove me wrong, you're going to have to re-examine your "there aren't that many non-WeiDU mods out there" statement.

Actually, that seems to be what you were doing. "Oh, you don't need to tell people that non-WeiDU mods go before WeiDU mods anymore." Even one mod's existence is good enough reason IMO to warn people about that requirement. I can only imagine the response in a few years when someone comes around because they didn't know... "Yeah, non-WeiDU mods are completely incompatible with WeiDU mods. You're better off not installing them."

But I'm probably completely wrong about that and just letting my cynical side take over. Never mind my rambling...

[ October 07, 2006, 20:23: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

I think you've jumped guns blazing onto a misinterpretation of what I'm saying. "Oh, you don't need to tell people that non-WeiDU mods go before WeiDU mods anymore." That's a poor paraphrase, since I merely note that it's not overly helpful as standard install advice. I'm not sure what the problem is: my contention is that the standard advice would be better expanded to cater more specifically for mods people are more likely to be installing, and less focussed around a distinction that was more relevant three years ago. I'm hardly arguing for anyone to provide LESS information.

Okay, I see now. You're upset that I'm telling people not to use your mods? I apologise, but given the disposition of mods to make things go wrong, I'm afraid I stand by the notion that it's only worth the end user playing something which provides a reliable automated uninstallation process, not some techincal documentation of how users can manually recover their game if problems arise. While I applaud your modding efforts, and hope you're not put off, I don't feel comfortable recommending your mod for mainstream consumption if you can't guarantee me that it meets this basic criterion.

 

Okay, direct quote then. "I don't consider the oft-repeated install order all that helpful because there's no reason you should be installing anything non-WeiDU these days anyway." Not helpful, no reason to install non-WeiDU. Right.

Well, that's certainly a good idea, and I would like to see a revised list that we could start distributing instead. Especially seeing as this thread is precisely about the order. But instead of providing one, you simply pooh-poohed the one given, mostly focusing on not needing to talk about non-WeiDU. And while it might be less relevant, it's certainly not irrelevant.

Yes, because the automated process is so much more reliable. Do you have any idea how many reports we get here of WeiDU uninstallers corrupting games? Heck, there's one right above my last post. On the flip side, how many reports have we gotten of the uninstallation of non-WeiDU mods causing problems? None that I've seen in over a year, and I'm one of the biggest lookouts in these forums.

Perhaps, but now I'm merely disappointed. If one little challenge is all it takes for you to start bad-mouthing other people's mods...

 

While WeiDU has become the distribution standard, it's not the only way to distribute a mod with a reliable uninstaller. Any experienced programmer could make an own installer/uninstaller which is reliable, and e.g. even WeiDU-compatible. (I.e. the mod will behave in the same way as if it were installed via WeiDU.) So the statement "non-WeiDU mods can't be reliably uninstalled" is false in itself.

A proper non-WeiDU mod (e.g. one in an IAPSFX) won't cause problems if the installation order and guidelines are complied with.
A documentation on how to uninstall it manually is required, indeed. If it's a good mod with quality content that compensates the additional effort, then players will install it.
But here comes why you like to "forget" the above facts: you (& co.) releases weidu-mods, often complex ones, and you want to ensure that you can keep them compatible with every other mod with minimum effort. If some mod doesn't meet your expectations in any way, you will try to "convince" its author to use your methods and recommendations, and if he/she doesn't do so, you will try to convince all players not to play that mod, even mireing it if needed. So you always expect the other modder to fix everything to suit your works, but you don't undertake the work to alter anything on your own. In these circumstances, don't expect conscious modders to follow your guidelines, if you don't show the least sign of *real* cooperation. There is no "conspiracy theory" or "ulterior motive" here, it's just the question of interests and developer comfort. You don't have to deal with compatibility if all mods are weidu PLUS inside that, follow the conventions you dictate. The part before the "PLUS" applies on non-WeiDU mods, while there is a good example to the other part: Improved Anvil was WeiDU, yet certain modders tried to mire it because it didn't follow the guidelines they dictated.

You recommend whatever and wherever you want, but then don't be surprised if you are warned that you're implying false things.

 

I think such a scenario is unlikely: learning WeiDU basics does not take much time, and will make creation of the mod faster and not slower. There'd be a net saving of time; unless the mod is a single item, I can't really think of anything which is easier to do without WeiDU--even from a beginner's point of view--than with it.

In principle, this is true. In practice, however, nobody has made and used an alternative, easily-uninstallable and multimod-compatible mod distribution system, and I don't think there is a need to because WeiDU does the job so well. In reality, WeiDU is the best (and I personally would say the only reasonable) choice.

Of course, if someone could come up with something more powerful and simpler to use I'm open to new ideas.