Political You-Tube video with more votes than any other

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YouTube - Dear Mr. Obama

 

I've seen this. I understand why it's so popular.

 

Brave and admirable young man. I disagree with much of his premise, but still admire him for standing for what he believes and certainly honor and appreciate his service and the things he's done in the service of Iraq, as do the vast majority of those voting for the other guy. I can see why it's gotten so many votes.

 

Eeew, that was a load of treacle. Some of you may find it offensive me saying this but I have never get the hero worship soldiers get in the US. Why are you worthy of such admiration if you at best has been misled to risking your life for causes that has nothing to do with you and at worst wants to make a living killing people is beyond me. Now I know my view here is in a very minor minority but still. I honestly see very little difference between American soldiers in Iraq or any other person killing people for a "cause" and yes that includes people labelled as terrorists.

 

I respect your opinion jaoquin, but can't you see how offensive it is for you to compare our soldiers to terrorists? Even to make a rhetorical point? Please reconsider your turn of phrase.

 

I don't. He comes across as an idiot IMHO.

I mean, to disagree is completely acceptable. But that response is not only offensive, it's extremely ignorant and disrespectful.

 

Joacquin, I don't respect your comment at all, but I do respect your honesty and recognition that you are in a minority.

It is an old tradition in the US to honor soldiers, and one that most have earned. Many of the wars the US has been involved in have been seen as a purely noble endeavor, frequently with the fate and freedom of the US at stake, by the common US populace. WWII was probably the last one truely and purely fit into that category, but the tradition dies hard. Also, remember that, while Hussein may not have been an immediate threat to the US, he was a sick and evil dictator nonetheless. He has frequently been compared to Hitler, with Hitler most often coming out on top. Hussein cultured his sons to make rape and torture hobbies, to be pursued on anyone they wished. I'd hardly compare soldiers who fight to free a nation from someone like that to someone who knowingly and intentionally target innocent civilians with no intention of harming combatants at all, and doing so is not just offensive, it is distasteful.

 

joacqin: There are two quotes I'll put here

I used the first quote because I really understand where you are coming from -- I just disagree with you. I went to school with a woman from Sweden and she was the most staunch supporter of a strong US military I've ever met. There are many from Sweden who believe the US is the only reason they were not a part of the Soviet Union. They may have been right from what I know of the issue.

The second quote gives the cause that we, as members of the military (and citizens of the US), believe is worth fighting for and, if need be, dying for -- freedom. For us, for you, for everyone. It may be blind foolishness on our part to believe that freedom and democracy are the foundations to make the world a better place. But I'd say that 90% or more of the citizen of the US believe just that.

Our nation was really founded by the blood of heroes. It was the blood of heroes that stopped aggression in World War I and the blood of heroes that stopped aggression in World War II. I won't say we don't get carried away with the sentiment, but I also will never apologize for a trait that I believe makes this nation strong.

My own family has served in the military, every generation, since the civil war when my great-great-grandfather immigrated from Sweden and was a surgeon in the Union Army. We have served in every war. It is a something I am proud of.

I disagree with you because I believe some causes are just, some causes are worth fighting for. Freedom for all people is one of those causes. By freedom I don't mean a McDonald's on every street corner. But rather the freedom to live in peace, without fear of being targeted by others because of prejudice. It's an ongoing process that we have not even acheived in the US. One last quote, because it represents the greatest courage I've ever heard of:

I do believe the world would be a better place if more people had Ghandi's courage and issues could be resolved passively. But I also realize not everyone has his level of courage -- I don't.

 

I'll add my voice to the rest -- Joaqin, your comments are disrespectful and in extremely bad taste - -and this is from a guy who is not super fond of the military himself. However, I am not surprised by them, as you have frequently demonstrated in times past a total willingness to treat the beliefs and feelings of others with disdain and sarcasm.

As for the video itself, I echo DR - -I appreciate the sacrifice this young man made by going over to Iraq, and the larger one made by the soldiers who didn't come back, but that doesn't change my feeling that sending them over there in the first place was a really, really bad decision. I didn't always feel this way but as more and more facts have come to light I have altered my position. But kudos to this young man who speaks his mind -- I only pray to God that he's the real deal.

 

LKD -- I have always maintained the war in Iraq was the wrong thing to do. We went into it for all the wrong reasons. I do not feel remorse for Saddam being ousted, though. However, I believe now that our troops are there we must give them every tool to complete the mission -- restoration of a free Iraq. This means fixing what we broke.

I disagree with Obama's timeline because we cannot possibly fix the infrastructure of Iraq in 16 months. Period. If we pull out now it will create the same vacuum that was created in Afganistan when we stopped send aid after the Soviets withdrew.

 

Why is it that so many of the responders get my name wrong? LKD -- is that so hard? Ahh, hell, what's in a name?

But, I digress. I certainly don't have a problem saying goodbye to Saddam. There's about 100 other tin plated despots who need removing, though, and we (the west) don't have the ability to eliminate all of them. As for staying to help, I agree with that in principle but in practical terms I'm not sure if we'll EVER be able to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure.

Nice thing about America -- and the west in general -- is that usually we can express divergent opinions without being derogatory or disrespectful -- something similar to how this soldier and Obama both truly love their country despite having opposite views on some things.

 

I believe T2Bruno summed it up admirably.

 

That is great Martaug cause T2 was the only even getting close to understanding my point which I am going to clarify now a little bit. I got riled up when I saw Death Rabbits comment, here we have a guy who was totally opposed to the war, hast lost all faith in McCain and the Republican party apologizing for disagreeing with a young kid on youtube just because the kid happened to have been a soldier. I find that uncomfortable. "I wear a uniform, I have killed a man, I am a hero" no, just no. You are a kid fighting for a political cause just like the people you are fighting. Do you guys honestly think that American kids joining their armed forces are inherently different from any other kid from any other country or any other time? I might personally support the American cause slightly more than the Arab/Muslim because just like in the American election you have one side which is nuts and then one side which absolutely stark raving bonkers but I can still almost find it easier to understand why a young Arab kid feels the need to kill Americans than for a young American kid to feel the need to kill Arabs. Nazi soldier, Soviet soldier, French soldier, Italian soldier, American soldier, Vietnamese guerilla, Japanese soldier, Algerian partisan or muslim terrorists the list can go on a long time they are all the same. Some of their causes I might find better than others but there is no inherent difference between those young men who for one reason or another decides to risk their lives and they are sure as hell not worthy of hero worship the only positive thing they are worthy of is pity. One more little point on this issue, if there werent people who thought like you T2 people like you wouldn't be needed to protect people from people like you, do you understand what I am saying? It is the T2's of the world that duke it out and does it matter whose cause is "bad" and whose is "good"?

As for Sweden, I do not know it would have to be a pretty nasty invader for me to think it is worthwhile fighting. The Soviets were nasty but I don't know if keeping them off our back would be worth a conflict killing thousands or even hundreds of thousands. War is the highest evil. Sweden were and are not even part of NATO we tried to stay neutral (although we sucked up big time to you yanks) and have a big enough military to make the cost greater than the benefit for the Soviets to invade.

 

Get over yourself, joacqin -- we all understood your post and your point, you're not the cerebral giant you make yourself out to be -- I (and I suspect others) simply are stating that you can make your points with a little more respect and class.

As for DR "apologizing", from where I sit he was acknowledging that the soldier in the video has had experience that DR has not had, and showing respect for that experience. I myself find myself in a similar position. I'd likely make a lousy soldier, but I am capable of showing empathy and respect for those who take on that job -- a job I'd venture you have not done, yet you have no problem making incredibly vicious statements about the lack of mental capability of those you deem "dim" enough to get "suckered" into the job. This is not "soldier worship" -- every member of this board, regardless of political stripe, can cite lots of cases of soldiers screwing up -- they're humans, and they should be held to the same standards as anyone else, but I strive to show empathy for those who take on a dangerous job and not ascribe malicious motives (or stupidity) to an entire group of people.

I won't even go near your comments about the "T2s" of the world because I'll likely say something that'll get me a reprimand.

 

joacqim: I think you misunderstand. Heroes are not made killing others. Heroes save others. "I have killed a man, I am a hero" is not our belief. The Medal of Honor is not given for killing others, but rather for saving the lives of others -- and it is usually given posthumously.

The "cause" IS important. The "cause" make the difference between a honorable soldier and a mass killer. Everyone has a cause they are willing to fight for. If that cause is greed, hatred, or pride we believe the cause is unjust. We believe is it important to fight against unjust causes. I grant you, a few nutcases join the military to "kill arabs" -- but most join for other reasons. There is not much difference in the individuals who join a military or a terrorist organization -- but there is a huge difference in the reasons they join and their motivations when they serve.

I would hope that people who think like me are protecting others from people who think like a terrorist. Nations with just causes do not war with each other. It is only when greed, pride, and hatred enter the picture that you have wars.

 

Excellent original post, T2. This is exactly why I give you so much respect. I'd rep it, but apparently I can't just yet.

However, while I know your motives are pure, and I agree that the US military has done much good, the danger is having honorable military personnel such as yourself being used as pawns for less-honorable means. Iraq is one example.

This illustrates my point perfectly. As you said in your first post, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". And whether you are a honorable soldier or a mass killer depends on one's perspective. Bill Maher got nailed for basically stating this; granted, his timing sucked, but his point was spot on.


To be clear - I am not saying 9/11 was in support of a "just" cause, nor do I believe T2 is anything but honorable. I'm just saying that supporting any military regime without question is dangerous. (And T2, I realize you were against the Iraq war, so this isn't really directed at you specifically. But the sentiments you expressed in your first post could be interpreted to mean that military service is honorable, regardless of the circumstances.)

 

Please understand me.

I initially supported the Iraq war. When it began, I considered myself a Republican, put my faith in the President (like most of my country after 911) and couldn't imagine that when the administration was going on TV and saying Saddam definitely has WMD; definitely is seeking nuclear weapons; definitely is an immediate threat to the US, that they would be so reckless as to say these things without 120% certainty. I took their word for it, even though every ounce of common sense I possess was screaming "hold the friggin' phone here!" I even argued with many here on the boards, like Ragusa and Iago, defending against what I saw as their "America bashing." Unfortunately, I knew after week 2 of the invasion that my trust was misplaced, that I'd been had (and so has this soldier, to a degree) and have been a fierce opponent and critic of the administration ever since.

I believe the war was a serious mistake. I agree with Obama when he says that he is not against all wars, just "dumb wars." Iraq obviously qualifies IMO, when you consider the reasons we went in, why we're still there, and especially when you consider what it has cost us and what we have gained for that cost.

Despite this, I still greatly admire and respect this young man's service to his country. His country called on him for service, and he proudly accepted. He volunteered. He paid dearly for that service with his leg and is now crippled for life. And he's still proud of his service. I have no doubt he'd still be in Iraq today if he were tip-top. Above all, he considers his service as just that - a service, to Americans and to the Iraqis. That doesn't make him an idiot or a rube or a murderer, it makes him a hero. In my country that counts for a hell of a lot. Your country and mine view military matters extremely differently, so I understand your position, but can't excuse your disrespect.

My appreciation for this guy's service isn't going to make me change my vote, however. I don't believe the party he supports have treated his sacrifice with the proper degree of care and respect. I think they have been reckless in being so quick to go to war without proper planning, prudence or justification, have gone to great lengths to avoid accounting for those mistakes and have in turn made things worse, and still show no signs of learning from those past mistakes (if the idiotic warmongering toward Iran and Russia are any indication). Worst of all, they have tarnished the reputation of this man's occupation, that of the American soldier. In Desert Storm, Iraqi soldiers would immediately throw up a white flag when they saw our soldiers coming, as they knew by reputation that our soldiers would treat them with dignity, respect and safety. This is a reputation that was hard earned by the blood of my countrymen from World War II and beyond. Thanks to this war, that reputation has been all but destroyed in the eyes of the world, and I don't know what it will take for us to earn it back. That is something I will never forgive the Bush Administration for.

This young man is appealing to voters from a very narrow point of view. Surely some good has been done for the people of Iraq by our presence. But it doesn't outweigh the bad, and doesn't mean it's enough to continue rewarding Republican rule for so much failure, like we did in 2004. Voting for McCain means that I am ok with the incompetence, cronyism and partisan rancor that got us into this mess, and I'm not. By voting for Obama, I'm not disrespecting his service or sacrifice in any way, and neither is Colin Powell or any of the millions of veterans who are voting for Obama in this election. In my opinion, it is the opposite.

I could say more, but I feel like I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop.

 

What is the job of a soldier? If you boil away all the fat it comes down to this: Using force to achieve political objectives. That is what soldiers do, sometimes they use force protecting things, sometimes they attack things but whether they protect or attack they doing so by using force, often lethal. From my point of view you have to be either be misled and ignorant, a scary zealot or a callous murderer to go along with this. You all come back to the point that sometimes you have to use force to defend yourself against things to wicked that they can't be tolerated. Who are commiting these wicked things? Normal people who are thinking the exact same things you are, who are reasoning just like you are. My entire argument is springing from extreme idealism. The consequences of the argumentation and the mindset you guys have we get the endless spirals of violence. The endless marsches of young men (and women) killing each other for the just cause.

Why is it seen as a great service to risk ones life and to kill strangers even by people who disagree with the reasons for the risks and the killings? I do not get it.

LKD, I can admit I like to put my points in a way I know can be provocative, the boards are boring when nothing is going on and my first comment in that post was aimed at that. Most of the people replied to what they saw as a provocation, T2 replied to what I was saying. As for my own military service I spent 10 months in basic training and some guard duty. Horribly boring. It was there though that my current attitude started to develop, at first I was taken in with the glamour, about the talk about honor, service, sacrifice and camarederie. About the officers talking a load of baloney (and we have a very soft and enlightened military service, it is probably way worse elsehwere with proper brainwashing taking place as you need to twist a kid quite a lot to enable him to go into a battle situation). Pretty soon I started to shake off the glamour though and saw that I was learning how to kill people, simple as that. I was taught how to kill strangers that most likely had done me no harm and whom I probably had more in common with than the people deciding that I should kill them. After that it all looked quite silly, the blustering, the ceremony, the "respect" and deference we were supposed to show to officers it was all a big show designed to take away the ability of rational thought in the young mens minds that could have told them that they are learning to kill and die. No, I have no respect for the military on an intellectual level, they are living in a dreamworld but a dreamworld that kills. As so many have pointed out, at the time being it seems like we need these lethal dreamers to protect us from other lethal dreamers but wouldn't it be nice if people woke up and came to the conclusion that it maybe isn't ok to kill people who disagree with you?

 

Your view is far too narrow, jaoqin. Few soldiers enlist to kill, most do so to defend - at least in a country like ours where our military is all voluntary. There is more to being a soldier than merely ending lives. If all we wanted to do was kill other people, we wouldn't use soldiers at all. We would nuke or gas or poision or infect our enemies. Military service isn't nearly as one-dimensional as you are making it out to be.

And yes, it would be nice if we all woke up tomorrow and no one wanted to hurt anyone. But that unfortunately defies human nature. We will always need someone standing on a wall defending us from those who want to knock it down. Guys like T2, and Drew, and martaug, and the guy in this commercial. I'm sure they'd rather have spent their military years on a beach somewhere, sippin' a beer and playing Baldur's Gate...but that's not the world we live in. As long as there are people out there willing to sacrifice their own safety for the safety of others, they deserve to be honored for it.

 

Actually....I'm looking to get back in. I still need to determine if the surgery I had on my elbow will disqualify me from re-enlisting, but if it doesn't disqualify me, I'll probably be joining the Army (as a musician) in about 6 months.

Good pay, non-taxable housing allowance, non-taxable food allowance, pension, free medical....