POLL: Berserker or barbarian?

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A variant of a dispute that ebbed here a few times already, but as they say, the old ones are the best Barbarian vs Berserker!

Which of the two do you prefer? Why do you prefer which? Whast's your favourite race? and so on ...


And for all comments which aren't included in the poll, just post your pros & cons.

Poll Information
This poll contains 6 question(s). 67 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Berserker or barbarian? (67 votes.)

Do you prefer the barbarian? (Choose 1)
* yes - 45% (30)
* no - 55% (37)

Do you prefer the berserker? (Choose 1)
* yes - 57% (38)
* no - 43% (29)

What is your favourite race for a barbarian? (Choose 1)
* human - 19% (13)
* half-elf - 4% (3)
* elf - 1% (1)
* half-orc - 57% (38)
* dwarf - 13% (9)
* halfling - 3% (2)
* gnome - 1% (1)

What is your favourite race for a berserker? (Choose 1)
* human - 22% (15)
* half-elf - 3% (2)
* elf - 0% (0)
* half-orc - 10% (7)
* dwarf - 63% (42)
* halfling - 1% (1)
* gnome - 0% (0)

Favourite weapon for the barbarian? (Choose 1)
* 1-handed - 37% (25)
* 2-handed - 61% (41)
* ranged - 1% (1)

Favourite Weapon for the berserker? (Choose 1)
* 1-handed - 67% (45)
* 2-handed - 33% (22)
* ranged - 0% (0)

 

There's only one thing to be said about Berserker, Dwarf. He is meant to be a dwarf, no doubt.

But my favourtie is still the Barb, he just got some extraordinary special skills and all that. And he moves fast too. Some people say that half-orc isthe best race for being a Barbarian, I don't think so. I like to use humans as Barbarians, not half-orcs. Someone (dis)agree?

 

Why no choice for dual-wielding? That's my pick. Oh well.

And Daephon, I disagree - but it is a matter of preference. I personally like being guaranteed a 19 in both Strength and Con. Both makes you a damage tanking machine from the get go (+3 to hit, +7 to damage, and IIRC +5 HP/level). Rolling for exceptional strength is just a pain in the ass.

I'm a huge Barbarian advocate. They just kick ass, what can I say. To start off, they have a slightly better rage over the Berserker:

Berserker:
May use Enrage ability once per day per 4 levels. While enraged: +2 to hit, +2 damage, -2 AC. The berserker at this time is immune to charm, hold, fear, maze, imprisonment, stun and sleep. He also gains 15 hit points while enraged. These hit points are temporary, and are taken away at the end of his berserk spree, possibly killing the berserker.

Barbarian:
* Can Rage once per day for every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). Rage gives them +4 to constitution and strength for 5 rounds. Gives a -2 armor class penalty and +2 to saves vs. magic (for 5 rounds). Rage also gives immunity to all charm, hold, fear, maze, confusion and level-drain spells.

+2 more to both STR and CON is quite a biggy, plus the Berserker misses out on level drain immunity during the rage. No temporary hitpoints to kill you if you aren't paying attention when your rage ends, and what's 15 extra hitpoints to a warrior anyway?

That brings me to my next point - or rather, "points" (pun intended). Barbarians gain more HP than anyone in the game (D12). So who needs a measly HP boost from a rage when you have a ton of HP to begin with?
Next point: they move almost as fast as a high-level monk, which rules. It's like having a character wearing the boots of speed - for free. So you can save the real Boots of Speed for your thief and mage characters.

Next point: At 11th level, the barbarian gains 10% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing and missile damage. He gains +5% to this every 4 levels thereafter. Eventually this turns out to help a lot I think. By level 19, that's 20% off all physical damage. Boo-yah.

Next point: Can't be backstabbed. No one can touch this one without the Gargoyle Boots. I know, wrong forum to bring that one up, but it just shows how valuable that is in SoA.

Only 1 small drawback: No plate mail. But this isn't a big deal, because the best plate mail in the game (Full Plate +2, AC -2) is only 2AC points better than the best chainmail in the game (Crimson Chain, AC 0). Those 2 points are easily made up by other items. As does his damage resistance.

Plus, Barbarians can Specialize in missile weapons, where Berserkers cannot. They can't achieve Grand Mastery in anything, but that's just a waste of proficiency points, anyway in an unmodded SoA or ToB game. The weapon masteries were way too nerfed.

Barby kicks ass. Sorry for the novel.

 

barbarians rule. better rage, faster, more hp, cant be hit by backstab. who cares if they cant wear plate or full plate, just give em crimson chain +5

 

I see people have voted for Berserker...I'd like to hear a compelling arguement as to why. Please.

 

I clearly prefer barbarians over berserkers, and I prefer dwarven barbarians generally. Even though they lack the 19 str of a half-orc they have better saving throws - and that means if you keep fighting when someone casts a spell on your char or don't. And who needs str-19 anyway with all these girdles around - and rage (which overrides belts anyway)?

The extra-hitpoints come in handy too, even though the lack of AC due to the limitation isn't that much a drawback (with the white dragon scale around).

Fast movement and resistance are great, the rage IMO is plain awesome, and I prefer a more versatile char like a barbarian over a pecialised fighter anyway. My current barb is using axes and flails singlehanded, if needed with shield, and halberds two-handed. IMO they have a lower initiative than berserkers but that is just my feeling, I have no proof on that.

 

The berserker is basically just a plain fighter with an added skill that you use occasionally, but with the ranged weapon limitation. The barbarian feels more like a different (and better) type of character.

 

Someone mind explaining what inititive is... I know what it means just how does it work in bg2?

 

I prefer Berserker as their weapons and dual-wielding skills are better.
My opinion is that: berserkers are generally better attackers while barbarians have more defensive power(berserkers are already a faster attacker(with their weapon mastery), so berserk rage is only for emergency purpose while barbarians need to use their barbarian rage before they are truely powerful).
Berserkers can also dual-class, which I think barbarians cannot.

I know it's not much, but in a roleplaying sense, I prefer berserkers.

 

As I understand it, initiative is a random roll for you and your enemy as a starting point to decide who attacks first. Weapon speed for you and your enemy is then added to your respective initiative rolls to give the final result - the lower, the better. But I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

 

I don't think the barbarian is better than the berserker. As i always play dwarves for berserkers/barbarians and a normal dwarf uses axes and/or hammers, perhaps also flails or maces, the strenght boost isn't doing anything because of crom fayer. But the +2 dam/atackroll from berserkers rage and the bonus for grand mastery also work when you already have 25 strenght. Berserker has more dam --> point for berserker.

With the hps your barbarian is better, 18 hp more standard, and either 9 or 18 bonus hp in rage(depends on your con)and some damage reduction plus a almost in all battles useless immunitie(sp?) to backstab, but: the barb looses two armorclass points while in rage, the berserkers gains a bonus of two. With the 2 ac more from the heavier armor, the berserkers ac is 6 lower than the barbarians one. Hmm both great tanks,-->point for both.

The immunities in rage are IIrc the same.

And to all who say berserker can't use missile weapons: A good throwing axe/hammer is a very good missile weapon.

Well, for me thats 2:1 for berserker, but that's just my opinion, and if barb is better... than i'll still prefer the berserker!

[ August 07, 2003, 14:48: Message edited by: diebysteel ]

 

I prefer the dwarven battlerager over the half-orcis barbarian, because the Grand weapon mastery is something invaluable... The berserker is a fighter who can use his rage abbility only when there are nasty liches (Kangaxx and the one in W'sK) or bad beholders (Underdark)... For me the berserker is the better hand-to-hand fighter with better fighting abilites...

 

My vote went for beserker as well. If you have the mod installed that un-nerfs the grand mastery, than there is a huge difference between two proficiency points versus five proficiency points. Not only do you get a bonus to hit and damage, but also an additional 1/2 attack per round.

Here's a question I'll throw out there. Aren't the first two poll questions essentially the same? I don't see why you'd vote both yes or both no. Strangely, I'd thought I'd see the responses be reversed, but they weren't. Since the first one was 12-8 (at the time I wrote this message), I expected the other one to be 8-12. For some reason, it's 9-11, and I have no explanation for this.

 

some people are mongtards

Beserker for me, my current game is with a beserker and he is basically invicible, wielding (currently) harmonium (sp) halbred, with the boots of speed, a few choice armour\trinkets etc and I've yet to see him take more than a quater of his hitpoints damage in chapter 2.

 

If we're talking about mods, then the same mod you mentioned (Ease of Use, I believe) also grants all warriors - Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians - grand mastery as well as the unnerfed grand masteries. So this doesn't really make a big difference. If that's the only reason you choose the Berserker over the Barby, just take this into consideration: Barbarian will have tons more hitpoints, have a better rage, natural damage resistance, immunity to backstab, move almost as fast as a monk, and with the Ease of Use mod installed, Barby can get GM in every weapon, including missle weapons. Berserker is still stuck at proficiency for those. To me, clearly the Barby spanks the Berserker in every major area...except one.

The only real logical arguement I can see against the Barby is plate mail restriction. But like I said, the best Chainmails in both SoA and ToB are only 2AC points worse than the best plates, and these 2 points are easily made up elsewhere through rings, helms or shields.


Ain't it fun to debate things that don't matter at all??

 

It's not the ease of use mod. It's a mod that does one thing and one thing only - it returns grand mastery to what it was originally supposed to be. It doesn't give the ability to paladins or rangers or barbarians. Just fighters. I can't remember the name, but it's on the SP site. I'll look a little later.

EDIT: It's called simply BG2 grandmaster fix patch. It's under Team BG2 Tools.

Plus, here's another factor to consider. There's really more than a two point armor differential while raged (which is one of the main reasons to select either a barbarian or a berserker). Yes, there's a 2 point AC difference based on plate versus chain. Plus, a barbarian gets a 2 point penalty to AC while raged, while a berserker gets a two point bonus to AC. So the total AC difference while raged is 6, which is NOT insignificant. You can make up a couple of points of AC, but if you intend to make up 6 points of AC, it is at the cost of not giving as good equipment to other members of the party.

I admit, the faster movement is nice. I admit, not being able to be backstabbed is nice, but those are convenience things. Getting somewhere faster doesn't make him more powerful. Not being able to be backstabbed is over-rated because how many times are you going to get a backstab attempted on you? Twice all game? Plus, there are throwing axes, daggers, and hammers in the game, so the only downside to the berserker - can't develop missile weapon proficiencies - really isn't all that bad, considering all those weapons you're already going to be a grandmaster in (well, maybe not daggers, but you get the idea).

Plus, beserkers can dual-class - barbarians can't. There isn't a class in the game that couldn't benefit from having a few levels of beserker in him. Sure, dual-classing is for powergamers - real men multi-class - but it is still something else to take into consideration.

 

A few counterpoints.

I'm not certain, but I think 2 point "penalty" actually means bonus. It's been awhile since I've played, but I believe my Barby's AC decreased by 2 while raged. I think that's just worded poorly. But the rage isn't just about AC; as far as I'm concerned, that's just gravy. A 2pt temporary AC hike isn't much for a warrior. However, +4 to both Str and Con (vs. the Berserker's +2) is very significant, and pretty much the best reason to rage IMO. If you have a half-orc and you turn on the rage, that boosts your Con and Str to 23 - Fire Giant strength, I believe. It's a nice ability to have for free a few times per day.

You said "Getting somewhere faster doesn't make him more powerful." I disagree. Maybe not more powerful, but definitely more useful. When my mage is getting pelted in melee, which does happen from time to time, and I'm on the other side of the screen, it's nice to know I'll get there in less that 1 round to save his ass. It also frees up the Boots of Speed for another character.

True about the backstabbing, I could care less too. But you're forgetting about the Barby's natural damage resistance, which easily makes up for not being able to wear plate. By the time you hit level 19, you have 20% resistance to all physical damage (slashing, piercing, blunt and missile). If somebody scores a 50pt critical hit on me, I want as much of that soaked up as I can get.

As far as dual-classing, I personally don't care because I dislike dual-classing immensely. But that's just my opinion and preference. I prefer single-class characters, and there are only a select few multi's I like. But that's me.

 

@ Death Rabbit

You make some really good points. I will try to explain why I usually go for beserker over barbarian - but keep in mind that I agree that the way you play, a barbarian is a better choice. If I'm going to single class, my favorite choice is a dwarven beserker (usually evil). I like to go through BGI first, so I'm starting off with a 19 str, 20 con and 18 dex. I usually give this guy proficiency in war hammers and flails, and he usually uses Crom Faeyr. Since that sets his strength to 25 (more than what a barbarian rage does), I'm missing out on half of the benefits of the rage (I still get the constitution bonus). By the way, the beserker's bonus isn't +2 to strength and constitution - it's +2 to hit and damage.

I agree that if you aren't using a strength-enhancing item which fixes your strength at a certain score, adding +4 to strength is going to wind up being a LOT more than +2 to hit and damage. With me, I know my strength is going to be 25, and since it can't go any higher than that no matter what I do, I lose half of the benefit of the barbarian rage, but I still get the +2 to hit and damage (granted at that point, the +2 to damage means nothing, because with proficiency and strength bonuses, I'm probably adding about +14 to damage anyhow, so it's pretty insignificant). Since all of the other effects (immunity to different spells and effects) between a beserker's and barbarian's rage are the same, for me the decision comes down to two things: (1) +4 strength +4 constitution, versus +2 hit and damage and (2) hitpoints.

I've already stated why I like the rage difference better, and here's my arguement about the d10 versus d12 hitpoints. It is true that a barbarian with a 19 in constitution can earn up to 17 hp per level, while a beserker with a 19 in constitution can earn a maximum of 15 hp per level. So all things being equal a barbarian will have 18 more hitpoints than a beserker (because once you hit level 10 both character get a fixed 3 hp per level gained). However, the key phrase there is "with a constitution of 19". As I said, my beserker comes in with a 20 in constitution, so he naturally regenerates. I'll take regeneration any day over 18 more hitpoints.

So I guess it gets down to playing style. Keep in mind that if I were allowed to play a barbarian in BGI and bring him into BG2, I may be inclined to go with him, but as it is, for my gaming purposes, I go with beserker.

 

@ Aldeth

Gotcha. When you explain it like that, I tend to agree with you. My standpoint is more of a "start from scratch in BG2" playing perspective, whereas yours is definitely a "powergame the whole saga" method, which I'm not sure I would have the patience to ever do. Especially since I personally couldn't use a dwarf as my protagonist (preference only). But that certainly seems like a great build for a really powerful character. Considering your weapon choices, it's too bad you couldn't do a fighter/cleric or some kind of Berserker/Cleric dual. Then your character would be absolutely godlike.