POLL: Best NPC Archer: Kivan or Coran?

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Personally, I love using them both. Which makes a more powerful archer, and why?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 29 user(s) have voted.
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Poll Results: Best NPC Archer: Kivan or Coran? (29 votes.)

Best NPC Archer: Kivan or Coran? (Choose 1)
* Kivan (Elf Ranger) - 59% (17)
* Coran (Elf Fighter/Thief) - 41% (12)

 

Kivan because I've never used Coran.

 

Elf: both. No advantage.
DEX: 20 to 17. Advantage, Coran.
Warrior: both. No advantage.
Proficiency: 3 to 2. Advantage, Coran.
Levelling and base THAC0: Advantage, Kivan.
Availablity: Cloakwood vs. High Hedge. Advantage, Kivan.

Availability advantage is more subjective than objective, but I can at least compare the other things. Kivan will usually have a base THAC0 one point lower on account of being one warrior level ahead of Coran, but that's countered perfectly by Coran's DEX advantage. Which leaves getting an extra half-attack earlier (128K XP for Coran, 75K XP for Kivan) to compete with Coran's constant proficiency advantage (+2 to hit, +1 to damage).

This all makes Coran the better archer except for two points: before Chapter 4 (where Coran can't shoot anyone because he isn't there ) and a 53K XP gap for gaining the 7th warrior level (which may vary based on when you get Coran). Given that you can rush to Cloakwood to get Coran, and that doing so would put Coran ahead of the rest of the group in terms of experience, you can reduce those periods where Kivan would be better.

Overall, I think the prize goes to Coran. But the two of them are in a class of their own when compared to the others, and there's nothing preventing you from having both.

[ August 31, 2006, 03:04: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

I rushed to Cloakwood to get Coran once and he was level 3/3 when I got him. Somehow he had either 1 or 3 extra hit points plus I got to distribute his thief skill points the way I wanted. He is awesome!

 

You have to wait a while to get Coran in an unmodded install, but otherwise, he comes out on top from a sheer power perspective as an archer. However, Kivan is a little more well-rounded as a tank (but Coran has very useful thief skills).

Both are very powerful NPCs, but Coran wins out as an archer, and by induction (considering the way BG1 works and the items available), in sheer power as well.

 

In a modded install too. AllNPCsAtTheBeginning doesn't remove the wyvern questing requirement for keeping him around, and even drags him further away from his objective, making time even more of the essence.

 

With that mod, is it even possible to draft him at level 1 and complete his Wyvern quest?

 

Like I said, no. No to three things, actually.

1. Getting him at level 1 is impossible because there isn't a 1st-level Coran in the game (only 3 and 5).
2. It wouldn't be possible to go do the quest right away because you'd have to get to Chapter 4 first. And between heading down to the Nashkel Mines, and then up to the Bandit Camp, you probably won't have enough time left to reach the Wyvern Cave.
3. Even if you were able to go straight to Cloakwood in Chapter 1, I wouldn't bet on a 1st-level party's chances against 2 adult wyverns and 3 babies, even with Coran at level 3. To say nothing of getting through the random encounters.

EDIT:
Damn, now you've got me thinking about it. Anyway, this is using the shortest path: first you head down to the Nashkel Mines (from the FAI). Then you come back through the mine to the entrance (using the lower exit to the other world area costs you about half a day) and head to the Carnival before heading up the the Crossroads. From the Crossroads you head east to Larswood and get essentially teleported up to the Bandit Camp. West from the Bandit Camp to the farm and down to the FAI and then to Cloakwood, and that's four days to the area where you would normally pick up Coran. Another 52 hours later, you're at the cave.

Of course, this "over six days" only counts inter-area travel time, not what you have to do within each area. Travelling from one edge of an area to another might take an hour or two in each area, with the exception of coming back north after the Nashkel Mines. It also requires that you spend absolutely zero time doing side quests while you're burning through the main quest, and never rest. (You can prevent fatigue from travel time by saving as soon as you enter a new area and then quitting the game entirely. When you restart the game and load the save, the fatigue won't have been applied.)

Given that Coran gives you eight days to kill the wyverns, that means you'll be cutting it pretty close. And then added to the possibility that he'll walk out before you get there is the possibility that you'll be slaughtered when you arrive because you didn't take time for side quests to level up enough.

[ August 31, 2006, 08:20: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Coran is (just) the more powerful character in terms of archery. I personally prefer Kivan as a warrior, partly because of his character and partly because he is more useful in close combat. Although even there it is close. In a group situation, Coran is more useful due to his thieving skills.

 

Coran have no strength bonus, while Kivan have a high Strength meaning he will do alot more damage with each hit. Coran just hits more often.

In most of my games where i ahve taken both, i have given items such as bracers of archery and Longbow of markmanship to Kivan to up hes chances to hit since he already got a good damage. and given items such as gauntles of ogre strengh or weapon mastery and the composite longbow +1 to Coran to deal more damage.

Also for those of you that havent noticed it, in the Wyvern cave in cloackwood map 4, in the entry of the cave there are a couple of stones standing close together. This means that if you enter the cave, pause, and tell all your character to move backward (without leaving the cave) and they wil stand behind the stones, thus the Large wyverns will be unable to get through to get you. Mow down the small wyverns with archery and spells. and the large ones will stand outside of range of melee and just wait to be shot down.

This also works when resting, just palce party inside the blocking stones and rest, random sleep encounter will always drop a big wyvern, and you stand behind the stones so it cant access you. free xp.

 

That only works with Arrows of Biting. The rest don't apply a STR bonus, so Kivan's STR means next to nothing when it comes to archery.

 

Arrows of Biting grant a STR bonus?

WHY?

 

For the record, getting and keeping Coran in All NPCs at the Beginning from the start of the game is very doable (I've done it myself), but you have to turn your focus to getting to the wyvern cave more or less immediately.

Coran is probably my favorite BG1 NPC (he's powerful, useful, and not annoying to me in the least), so I feel he's worth the trouble.

 

Klorox, it's just a bug. I'm sure Baldurdash or any other bugfix mods change it.

 

That is strange, I seem to recal Kivan doing wastly more damage with arrows than Coran or my own ranger with Strength 15. I will have to look into that sometime when i got time (next week probablly). Also can't remember ever seeing naything about bows not using strength bonus until i started reading 3E books first time.

 

Coran wins just because he quotes Ol' Blue Eyes....

Actually, the +3/+3 gained by having three proficiency points in bows puts him above Kivan in both to hit and damage (let alone the 20 dex). Coran hits more often and for more damage with a bow.

Both are excellent additions to a party.

 

Coran

 

I tend to like Kivan more simply because you can pick him up in Chapter 1. I never rush through the game to pick someone up. I have nothing against Coran mind you, and when he's in my party he usually leads the party in kills when taking individual chapters into account. However, he rarely leads everyone in total kills for the game, simply because he wasn't around for the first three chapters, and that's a lot of kills to make up.

 

Although once you obtain the champion he is a VERY valuable addition aye

 

Certainly Kivan. Available much earlier, doesn't look like a "butt-ugly Shadow Thief", (to borrow an acute observation from SixOfSpades ) and he's a superb archer without the aid of illegal DEX stats and weapon proficiencies. The fact that there's an excellent mod that brings him in for the entire SoA-ToB stretch is the icing on the cake. (I like having some party continuity)

Eh, kind of an old thread, but at least it was still on the first page.

[ November 04, 2006, 18:59: Message edited by: Gorilym ]