POLL: Cleric/Thief - Gnome or Half Orc?

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If you want to make a multi-class cleric thief, which race is better: gnome or half orc?

So far, I see the following differences:
Gnome gets better thief skills, but only 17 wisdom. Half-orc has worse thief skills but 18 wisdom. And better strength until late game. Does 19 CON help your hit points for this non-fighter class?

And some other side questions not related to the poll, but I might as well ask it here as well. What alignment would you pick? Which stronghold?

And finally, what party would you build around the C/T? It's a nice class in that both clerical and thieving jobs are filled with one character, so it seems to open up a slot in the group. I was thinking about taking Mazzy for sure, just because I've never used her before.

[ August 24, 2005, 23:38: Message edited by: Blog ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 15 user(s) have voted.

Poll Results: Cleric/Thief - Gnome or Half Orc? (15 votes.)

Cleric/Thief - Gnome or Half Orc? (Choose 1)
* Gnome - 47% (7)
* Half Orc - 53% (8)

 

The 19 Con does not help; unless you boost it to 20 somehow (and then get some regeneration abilities). The bonus for HP is capped at a Con of 16 for non-Fighter classes.

I hate the Thief stronghold so I would go Cleric; but that's me. I just can't stand having to run back to the Guild after every quest.

You'll need at least one frontliner. Personally, whenever I play through the game I end up with 3+ frontliners but a cleric/mage lacks the ApR to do a lot of good upfront.

 

I voted gnome for two reasons:
1. I'm not that fond of half-orcs in the first place.
2. TIAX RULES!

Think how much fun it would be to run into the Tiax 'imposter' in Spellhold and argue with him. Alignment is obvious: CE (be as bad as you wanna be ). Party would be centered around the evilness:

C/T (All hail Tiax!)
Korgan
Viconia
Edwin
Yoshimo (maybe)
and an open spot or two for quests

I'd go with the cleric stronghold, but that's only because the thief stronghold is so short. I know there's a mod out there that lengthens it, but I don't want to be coming back to Athkatla every five freakin' days anyway.

 

You could really make a nice backstabbing thief with a half-orc. Give him a 19 strength (+3 to hit, +7 damage), cast sanctuary and boo-yaa! He's nearly a tank! For the half-orc I'd have an evil party like Fel lists and get the fix so you can romance Viconia.

Since you seem to want Mazzy, this implies a good party, so take a gnome with Aerie as a romance. Pick-up Nalia (trade her for Imoen), and either Minsc, Keldorn, or Valygar and you're set. I'd go with Minsc -- he has good interactions with Aerie and Mazzy.

I always like having Jaheira along, too.

 

Either is perfectly playable, which you prefer depends entirely on how you intend to use them. Gnome has better thieving skills, but is worse in just about every other way. However, it's the only way to get a "Good"-aligned romance option, as T2Bruno pointed out. A Half-orc will have superior Strength and Wisdom: the former is helpful for backsmacking with clubs and staves; the latter for bonus spells. Belts and other strength-enhancing gear will negate this first advantage; the second will always remain. It's also worth noting - in case you didn't already know - that bonus damage from strength isn't multiplied by the backstab multiplier.

So it basically boils down to which you need more; a bonus level 4 spell, or +20% skill points. Neither presents a clear & distinct advantage over the other, but I would - just - say that the bonus spell is more likely to make a difference, as there's not all that much to do with thief skills after a certain point.

Thus, I'd present Half-Orc as the powergamer's choice (mostly for the high starting strength), with Gnome either a roleplaying preference, or for one who desperately feels they need those skills.

Oh, and I'd definitely go for the Cleric stronghold. The thief stronghold nets you lots of cash, but only one pseudo-quest (it's just one battle, essentially) and is very annoying to manage, with thieves having to be appointed to tasks through a teeth-pullingly tedious conversation interface.

 

The Half-Orc is probably more powerful, but the Gnome is much more durable. Gnomes get a bonus to their saving throws vs. magic based on their CON. That's a HUGE advantage!

 

I always forget the save bonuses... So yes, we have another reason to take Gnome. This could swing the pendulum, were it not for the number of Immunity-to-spell-effect items (and spells) available in both SoA and ToB.

I'm glad I didn't vote; I really can't pick between the two at the moment. Were I you, I'd just see which was the easiest to come up with an appealing character concept for.

 

Close poll and debate, I must say.

I think I'm convinced to take the cleric stronghold. I hear Mazzy and Korgan have good banter, so I'll take those two for my frontliners. I might pass on a party mage so I can better micro manage my C/T and his backstabs.

Which means I sort of want my C/T actively participating in battles, instead of passively slinging bullets. Maybe one of the races is better suited for this role than the other???

 

Half-orc. Definitely half-orc.

But OTOH, if you go gnome, you can go through BG1 first and get Tomes. Here's an after-BG1 picture:
STR 19
DEX 19
CON 16/17
INT 4+
WIS 20
CHA 18/19

EDIT: Hmm, this is starting to look good. Maybe I'll try this next time through...

[ August 25, 2005, 07:25: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Guys! Have any of you ever taken the Cleric stronghold before? They are singularly the most boring strongholds of all.
They consist of simply standing around giving advice to idiots. Atleast if you are evil you can give some really jerk responce and indulge in killing. Unless you are playing Evil, don't take the Cleric stronghold.

If you think that the thief stronghold is too short (it is not the shortest) you can always get the extended thief stronghold mod.

The HalfOrc can go to the frontlines, the Gnome will sit at the back. However this is mostly during the early part of the game since later your THAC0 will suck as compared to Korgan.
Gnome can romance Aerie. HalfOrc (if you got the baldurdash fixpack) can romance Viconia.

 

Tough choice (I didn't vote) my problem is that I can't figure a Half Orc growing up in Candlekeep whereas a Gnome isn't that weird...
Plus Tiax rules
@Felinoid: man don't you think you're getting carried away stat wise???

 

If you have BG1 & TOTSC start off with a Gnome C/T and you will have a 20 wisdom when you are done.

 

Gnomes are better: they have thief skill bonus, saving throw bonus for high constitution. You don't need 19 CON for T/C and 17 WIS is enough. And also as mentioned above; TIAX rules everyone!

 

Minor downside to the C/T: Only one quick weapon slot, and no room for the Turn Undead button. I think I'll probably just stick to the other 50 ideas I've come up with.

@Caradhas: Maybe a little, but he/she is part god, you know.

 

I'd have to go with the gnome too. If you decide to go through BG1/TotSC first, he is equal or superior to the half-orc in every conceivable way. Even if you don't do this, I think the saving throw bonus is worth slightly worse reduced damage in melee, and an extra 3rd level spell. (I think the difference between 17 and 18 Wis is a 3rd level spell, not a 4th as was indicated above. I thought 13 and 14 got +1 1st level spell, 15 and 16 got +1 2nd level spell, and 17 and 18 got +1 3rd level spell. All are cumulative, so with an 18 wisdom, you'd get +2 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells.)

 

@Felinoid: So is Imoen, Vierkang and countless Bhaalspawns. The stats you gave looked more godlike than anything...

I'd go with the Gnome, no way I can picture a Half Orc in Candlekeep, plus one point of WIS isn't worth it and the extra STR is nigh useless (1 attack only so... plus the girdle available early in the game)

 

@Aldeth:
No, it's a fourth level at 18 WIS. The ones the manual (p.226) gets wrong are 19, 23, & 24.

 

If Gnomes saving throws are based on CON, is it worth getting 18 CON then?

 

No. I believe you get +1 for every four points you have in CON, rounded down, so whether you have 16 or 18 it's +4.

EDIT: Based on post below, it WOULD matter. An 18 would give an additional +1.

[ August 25, 2005, 22:23: Message edited by: Aldeth the Foppish Idiot ]

 

Gnomes (as well as dwarfs and halflings) get +1 bonus for each 3,5 CON.