POLL: Date rape pill and other such

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In connection with the rape thread, I would like to ask a couple of questions (the poll) and discuss the date rape pill [edit: link], drinking people into oblivion to have sex with them, using lies and threats to obtain sex from people and several other things.

Do you believe it's rape, do you think it should be punishable, what the punishment should be etc etc are the problems to discuss.

[ March 01, 2005, 22:08: Message edited by: chevalier ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 8 question(s). 28 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Date rape pill and other such (28 votes.)

Have you ever slipped the date rape pill into someone's drink? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 0% (0)
* No - 100% (28)

Have you ever made someone drink alcohol to have sex with that person? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 7% (2)
* No - 93% (26)

Have you ever used any other chemical substances to obtain sex from someone? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 0% (0)
* No - 100% (28)

Have you ever coaxed a sad, hurt or depressed person into sex? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 4% (1)
* No - 96% (27)

Have you ever used a threat or threats to make someone have sex with you? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 0% (0)
* No - 100% (28)

Have you ever tricked someone (by lying or otherwise) into sex? (Choose 1)
* Yes - 4% (1)
* No - 96% (27)

If answered yes to any of the above, do you think of yourself as a rapist? (Choose 1)
* Yes, I think of myself as a rapist - 0% (0)
* No, I don't think of myself as a rapist - 14% (4)
* I haven't answered yes to any of the above - 86% (24)

...And are you offended by the suggestion that any of the above could be rape? (Choose 1)
* Yes, the suggestion offends me - 7% (2)
* No, the suggestion isn't offensive to me - 21% (6)
* I haven't answered yes to any of the above (i.e. questions 1-6) - 71% (20)

 

??????? Aren't all those things examples of rape except coaxing someone who is sad or depressed? I mean mere coaxing doesn't equate to nonconsensual sex. And how could you lie to someone in an effort to obtain sex, unless of course you're lying about giving them alcohol or a date rape pill... but then the question is redundant.

 

Lying to get sex as rape?!?!? That would change the whole nature of dating as we know it. Just walk into any 'meat market' and listen to the guys bragging about how important they are, or how much money they make, or anotomical dimensions. It's damn funny. What's really funny is most of the women KNOW they're lies (and the guys don't realize it).

Lying is a part of dating. I, for one, was always pleased there were so many liars out there -- it made us honest ones a 'good catch.' As least, that's what my wifes opinion of me is ... err, was ... well, she tells me I was a good catch ... she wouldn't be lying ... would she???

 

Well, if you give a drink, it's fine. But if you give more and more alcohol to someone in order to reduce his or her "inhibitions" and tear down his or her resistance with the purpose of dragging the person to bed in mind, it's pretty close to date rape pill effect, anyway. It only comes in small portions. IMHO guys who invite random girls and then give them 40% alc drinks disguised as slightly empowered fruit juice (it's easy to make one, really) and then drag them somewhere backstage..., well, they are rapists. Like any other.

With lies, I mean lies. Intentious verbal fallacies are the first thing I consider here. Telling a lie to get sex if you wouldn't get it for saying the truth is a good example.

Of course, lying about your age isn't the same as pinning someone down, but technically, it still omits the free consent part. Lying isn't really supposed to be a part of dating. If dating relies on lying, it's pretty much mutual abuse oriented simply on getting sex from people of the opposite gender and nothing else matters. Morally, that's equivalent to rape.

Coaxing a sad or depressed person into sex is to be understood as taking advantage of a girl who can't think straight because something bad has happeneded to her and she's low and blue and all depressed and then you come in and pretend to be comforting her in order just to abuse her.

At any rate, I am not saying I myself consider all instances of question 1-6 to be rape. Some yes, some no, and question 7-8 should be read as it is, without trying to guess my mind.

[ March 02, 2005, 06:24: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

I think some are just taking advantage of people i.e. showing a depressed person affection in the hopes of bedding them. I don't think its rape, but its still wrong.

Giving someone lots of alcohol is a tricky one. If you make them pass out so you can have sex with them its rape as far as I am concerned, however if they are tipsy/drunk enough to be more 'inhibited' than usual it may not necessarily be rape. The two above instance's should be judged on their own merit.

 

If the person is being made drunk for the intended purpose of having sex with that person, it's still rape in my eyes because it's not much different from just waiting till he/she passes out. If he/she can't walk or think straight, it's practically almost like having passed out already.

The idea is that if a girl is suffering from some problems which are giving her severe depression, she obviously makes an easier target than normally. For someone with whom she normally has consensual sex, this isn't a problem, but for a stranger using the opportunity, it is. Especially if he starts pretending to be comforting her and tells her a lot of garbage in the process. This is somewhat related to the question about lying. In the light of those more conservative criminal laws, this would make a crime called seduction.

Yeah, although things like "I don't have a wife and four children" or "I am not a priest/nun" still count, in my humble opinion. I would say seduction rather than rape for the sake of deciding the punishment, but morally it's still going around the consent part, and so fraud.

 

Of course. But the person doesn't always know what he/she is getting. Still, I'm not really talking about guys who drink with girls and then bed them but about guys who pick girls who don't know the effect of the stuff they're drinking. Either that or pulling the hospitability trick (i.e. taking offence when someone won't take the drink and working his/her feeling of guilt) specifically for the purpose of later dragging that person to bed when he/she becomes too tipsy to realise what's going on or to offer any serious resistance.

 

Let's say the person who gets drunk that way is quite foolish and largely has himself or herself to blame, but it still doesn't remove the culpability (and certainly not in any moral sense) from the other person, who, after all, is acting in an ugly manner and with a specific nefarious purpose in mind.

 

Perhaps not on par with brutal rape, but I would make it punishable if it depended on me.

 

Thank the gods it doesn't depend on you chev

If having sex with a drunk person is rape then it would have to be because drunk people are not at fault for getting drunk. Thus drunk drivers couldn't be prosecuted even if they killed someone while driving a vehicle.

If consent is granted it isn't rape. If they were drunk at the time of consent it doesn't matter since any woman could have sex with a man then claim they were drunk at the time and the man would be charged for rape. Proving someone was drunk is a difficult thing to do, especially if the crime is reported hours after.

 

I'd agree with abomination here... getting someone drunk or trying to hit on them when they are depressed (hmmm, exactly how depressed or how drunk are we talking here?) might not be a moral thing, but I don't think it qualifies as rape.

 

Drunk drivers are prosecuted because they put themselves in that state of their own choice. A drunk driver is not prosecuted if he hadn't been at fault in getting drunk (didn't know the power of it, organism reacted abnormally and other such).

And I have to remind again that I'm not asking about having sex with a drunk person by another drunk person but about the more sober people abusing the more drunk people, especially people drinking others into oblivion for the purpose of lowering their resistances. That's what I wrote in my question and in a couple of posts above. Where does it say that it's rape-like to have sex if both people are drunk? It would have to be a mutual rape and this would be ridiculous.

If you know what you're doing, it's easily possible to prepare very special potions from alcoholic liquids. It's not like I mix drinks often, but I could safely disguise a powerful 20% vol mixture as something totally harmless (Eerr... speaking about women and outside Eastern Europe. Normally, 20% is harmless. ). Heck, with some invention, it's possible to disguise booze as something next to non-alcoholic. It's easy to charge someone up without him or her knowing.

Next, a person who is too tipsy to walk straight is hardly consenting. I guess it depends on the person... I used to be able to speak fluent French when I weren't able to stand up, but still. It's far from free and informed consent.

However, when a woman is too tipsy to know what's going on and is dragged to a separate room by a sober "friend" and then she's too drunk to provide any sort of resistance, that's rape. Plain and simple. Not saying it's rape when she actually tells him she wants it - after all, sometimes drunken women drag sober men to bed - but even then it would already be morally wrong. So how so much more when she is in no position to agree or refuse?

In jurisdictions where there are jury trials, as jury members are not always educated and can't actually be lawyers (as far as I know), there is that nice simplified formula used about persons unable to discern or direct their actions - "unable to tell right from wrong". Essentially, if someone is in such a state as to be unable to tell right from wrong, he or she is in condition to consent to sex, either. Knowingly to exploit that circumstance is downright evil and should be criminal.

[ March 03, 2005, 14:25: Message edited by: chevalier ]

 

????? Are you serious? We'd have to put half the men under the age of 25 in prison if seduction was a crime.

One thing that I will agree with you on though is that there are different degrees of rape in the justice system. In Maryland, at the very least, there is first degree rape and second degree rape. In the first case, the rape is forcible, in that the woman said no, and physically resisted the rapist. Second degree rape is one where no resistance was given, usually because the woman was unable to give consent. This is because she's passed out drunk, or whatever. It is considered somewhat of a lesser crime than first degree rape because it isn't a crime of violence.

 

Fraudulent seduction used to be a crime in this country and not only in this one. It's just the sexual revolution which has made the idea sound strange. Funny thing, the revolution was supposed to liberate people and protect their freedoms, but it's more often than not used to get away with abuse.

However, fraudulent doesn't mean that it was a crime when the guy went out of his skin to make the best impression possible and then moved on to the next one. It had be something like tricking the person into sex or using promises of marriage or engagement fraudulently to achieve material gain and such. So even if you lied about love in order to bed a girl, you would go to prison if they proved it to you. I believe this would be a great law to have.

 

It takes a real son of a b**** to do this kind of thing to a woman (or a man).

@Abomination- excuse me if I misunderstood what you said, but WTF?!?!?! What do you mean

Of course drunk drivers are at fault! No body makes them drive in that condition, and if they do kill someone, they should be tried for murder and executed. I can't believe the state of this country. We let pos's like this get a woman drunk for the sole purpose of raping her, and we let them go with a slap on the wrist, if that, all the while making the victim look like a whore. Well, it must be her fault I guess, that'll teach her to look pretty and wear that dress!
Same thing with drunk drivers. There are people out there with 16 DUI convictions with access to vehicles.

Please excuse me if I misunderstood your point Abom, and I hope I do not come across as being disrespectful to you, but that just doesn't make any sense.