POLL: Don't wanna kill Rayic Gerthras

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In another thread about Edwin we started to discuss whether a Good PC, and especially a Paladin should comply to Edwin's demands and kill the cowled wizard in his home in the docks.

[EDITED in order not to influence the poll ]

Please vote and explain the reasons that motivate your decision.

[ August 28, 2005, 23:31: Message edited by: Caradhras ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 34 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Don't wanna kill Rayic Gerthras (34 votes.)

Should a GOOD aligned character kill Rayic Gerthras? (Choose 1)
* Yes, he is in league with my enemies. - 38% (13)
* No, he hasn't done anything to deserve such a grisly fate. - 47% (16)
* I'm undecided. - 12% (4)
* I'm EVIL. - 3% (1)

 

Okay, I'm first. It's murder, pure and simple. If it would further the goals of law, then maybe. But not at the whims of a Red Wizard. And not when you could just as easily warn the Cowled Wizard that he is a target for assassination.

 

A paladin would probably kill Edwin...

 

"I think murdering someone you don't even know to please a Red Wizard of Thay is not worthy of a LG character."

So you could presumably kill the guy once you got to know him better. That's probably more civilised anyway

 

Sure, you shouldn't just walk up and start smacking him around (despite the obvious evil of employing mephits as guardians). What you do as an LG character is stubbornly insist to know what is going on. Rayic will eventually attack you, and you can kill him in self-defense.

 

I voted yes, kill him, playing as a LG paladin.

1) The Cowled Wizards are corrupt anyway and as they abducted my childhood friend to Tyr-knows-where, I want to find out about that. As the ones I spoke to in the government district evade my questions and right-out *refuse* to answer my questions concerning Imoen's fate, then offer a 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' deal (find Valygar and bring to me and I'll tell you about your friend), I am left to my own devices to gain information. I recall I am a member of the Shadow Thieves, I decide to speak to the guildmaster in the docks district.

2) In order to get any information from Bloodscalp, I must jump through more hoops and find out about MaeVar. In doing so, I run into Edwin Odessiron, the Thayvian mage. Edwin hints he has knowledge useful to me and offers an 'exchange' - I 'kill' one Rayic Gerthras to get him off Edwin's back and Edwin will tell me about the capture of Irenicus. I have found no other leads to help me find Imoen, so I reluctantly agree.

3) The door to Rayic's home is open. I enter to *speak* to him and find myself under attack by mephits. I defend myself and proceed to the second floor where two stone golems attack me. I dispatch them and walk to the third floor. Rayic is there and asks what am I doing in his house. The game engine does not allow me the opportunity to reply with anything other than: "We were just leaving" and "Prepare to die!" I would *like* to come to some sort of nonviolent mediation, but that's right out.

4) Thusly, I respond with "We were just leaving". Before I can make it down the stairs, he casts a spell at me and my party. Since I am leaving, I see no reason for him to cast any spell on me whatsoever. I turn to find out what he thought he was doing by asking and he then casts another spell which sends most of my party running for the hills. He has now *deliberately*, though perhaps inadvertently, harmed myself and my party. I cast my Remove Fear spell at my allies in order to get them calmed down. Rayic then casts Fireball.

5) It is now an attack on *my* person. I would *like* to subdue Rayic and take him to the authorities, but, as the game engine does not allow for subdual of an enemy, I am left with no recourse other than to kill him. Of course, this is just what my pally was doing. Who knows what my other party members wanted to do.

 

First off, this poll sounds very *unbiased* We newfies saw LOTS of 'objective' petitions by Europeans about OUR seal fishery - one cannot grow up in these circumstances and not learn about propoganda, statistics and 'leading questions'.

But anyway, I played through SoA once, and yes, we were loaded down with 'goody-goodies' - my LG paladin PC, Keldorn, etc. I kept having 'Auntie J' nagging me about "striving to maintain balance!"

And YES, I killed the hot-head.

From what I recall, my first interraction with the Cowled Wizards is their intervention on a personal battle where I am avenging my and my companions' kidnapping and imprisonment (and other companions' deaths) upon Jon Irenicus. I welcome the aid, but these spellcasters simply summarily take/arrest both magi - leaving us divine spellflingers alone - without any explanation beyond "an unauthorized use of magic". I don't know who they are, where they get their authority, or even WHERE I AM, so I'm a little vexed.

Further, these Cowled wizards 'try' the two unauthorized users and summarily imprison both, with no consideration to the circumstances of the situation - self-defense, ignorance of location, etc. Now Tyr would have a wonderful field day with this brand of 'justice' - if possible, I have a side-quest beyond vengence upon Irenicus and rescue of Imoen - bringing down the corrupt, unjust tyranny of the Cowled Wizards...pity BioWare wasn't able to allow me more flexibility to pursue that.

So now, my investigations bring me to two options; traffic with the Shadow Thieves, or with a Red Wizard of Thay. I chose the lesser of two evils; Bioware has been pretty felxible in the case of resolving Anomen Delryn's quests with little bloodshed, maybe I can settle this difficulty between Edwin and Reyic amicably?

{events described by both Fel & kuemper}

Well, I guess not. Besides, the presence of mephits did make me a little suspicious...

So, one less Cowled Wizard subjecting the populace of Athkatla to despotic rule, and I get info from 'fast Eddie' - it's win-win.

 

@apathetic empath: what you describe is clearly the attitude Keldorn have towards Viconia: ignore her and then strike her down when nobody is paying attention... That's not very Lawful not very Good either.
I have an opinion so I'm not objective: my post is subjective but the poll question is not biased, I leave every option open. So please remain civil:

I have opinions just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm trying to orient the answers, after all I chose to make a poll which means that I care about what the people on these boards think. Furthermore statements such as the one included in my post are meant to get some reactions, not to insure that everyone agrees with me.
I wish I was a conniving, manipulative, Machiavellian mastermind -just like Edwin?

-back on topic-

@Ruddiger: what I meant is that complying to "dispose" of someone you don't even know, i.e. has done nothing to wrong you, who isn't responsible for any crime (compare with Firkraag!)not that you should become friends with him before killing him...

I believe that Edwin is more blatantly evil than Rayic Gerthras. But should you really move around killing every "evil" person in the game? Just cast detect evil mark the red spots and go berserk?

@Kuemper: this kind of behaviour means that the end justifies the means, very annoying for a paladin who would help and work for (murder!) a notoriously evil mage (aka Edwin) in order to get spurious information about Imoen. I never imagined Paladins as relying on deception and deceit to achieve their goals.

Here is an extract from Pnp rules:

If you really harbour some resentment towards the cowled wizards why don't you get rid of Tolgerias and his cronies in the Government District?
The self defence argument holds since the game does not allow any option for fast-talking the wizard, yet his reaction is understandable: some complete strangers armed to the teeth enter uninvited and kill your pets before rudely interrupting your rest. Are you going to wait for then to skewer you with their blades, cast their spells and set theirs traps around you?

Edwin is the outlaw, not Rayic Gerthras... You can't possibly bring him to the authorities! On what ground? Cowled wizards are law enforcement.

Usually I play Neutral or Evil characters who live by this saying: "you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs" but I decided for a change to RP a good PC... and I just couldn't bring myself to commit murder on Edwin's behalf. I knew it meant an end to the Thief stronghold quest and since I was playing a Swashbuckler it was a hard blow (going through BG1 I didn't agree to kill the witch Dynaheir either so there is some continuity). I'm not fond of paladins, they are too stiff for me, but I can't understand how killing the wizard could be justified. So far I found the self defence argument convincing to a certain extent... because I can't understand how a good character and especially a paladin could stoop so low as to help Edwin.

 

I kill him. Always. He is evil BTW I would miss a lot of XP if I wouldn't.

 

This is what Edwin says:

Murder and torture... How nice!

@Undertaker: XPs are good, though they often make little sense RPwise.

 

Caradhras - You believe paladins act one way, I believe they act in another. Sometimes, people do 'bad' things for 'good' reasons.

Why is Edwin an outlaw? Because he is a mage?

As for bringing Rayic to the authorities: I am going above and beyond what's offered in the game via the story. I am telling you how my PC acted in this given situation. My pally wants to find Imoen. Is a paladin anyless lawful and good for killing Sarevok?

As for the subjectiveness of the poll, you posted the topic under the title "Don't wanna kill Rayic Gerthras". Fine. But wouldn't the question, "Should a GOOD aligned character kill Rayic Gerthras?" be better as the title of the post? The bolding and allcaps of 'good' puts stress on that word, implying all good alignments (LG, NG, CG). Your reasoning mentions a 'Lawful Good character' and the fact you refer to another post gives the impression you mean GOOD in the question to be specifically about LG (more to the point paladins). IMO, would've been clearer to ask, "Should a LG Paladin kill Rayic Gerthras?"

About what you directed to apathetic empath:

His post was civil. I found no name-calling or foul language in it. Apathetic said:

You misquoted his statement concerning European petitions about Newfoundland fisheries and made it seem he was dissing your poll.

 

A paladin (or other LG character) should not be involved with the Shadow Thieves to begin with. A thieves' guild goes completely against the grain of LG-ness; that's why the only alignment thieves aren't allowed to be is LG! Even the association with Aran Linvail is a bit iffy; after all, he is the leader of the Shadow Thieves. I'm not sure there's any way a paladin could make it to Chapter 4 without doing something that ought to earn him/her "fallen paladin" status.

NG: Should have a bad taste in their mouth, but go through with it based on the belief that they are serving the greater good. They would attempt to reason with Rayic and convince him to lay off long enough for the PC to take down Mae'Var AND Edwin. When Rayic proves unreasonable, drastic measures are required to protect the party.

CG: evil + attacks you = dead (Just that simple.)

That's why you kill them both. And you may notice that every paladin in both games is intent on killing evil.
-Ajantis: He thinks that every place we go has "a feeling of...eeevil about it." (Sometimes I wish I could tell him, "Look out, there's some evil on your neck!" and watch him lop his own head off. )
-Laurel (hunting gibberlings just north of the Gnoll Stronghold): Believes gibberlings are a plague to be wiped from the Sword Coast. IOW, she's dedicated to the genocide of an entire evil species.
-Bjornin (in Beregost): Wants revenge on some half-ogres. No 'protecting the poor farmers', just 'get 'em for me'.
-Keldorn: You've already made the case for that one yourself, Caradhas.
-And finally, Phandalyn (in the city of Baldur's Gate): Does exactly that!!! He walks up to your party, 'Detects Evil', and then attacks you if you've got anyone evil in your party.

So the answer to your question is a resounding "Yup" from the designers.

[ August 28, 2005, 22:19: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Well maybe it is not very RPwise but when I go to him I always wait untill he is the one who attacks first (poor guy, he haven't noticed those traps under his feet). I'm acting in self defence

 

@Caradhras:

Oh, sorry - I didn't mean to say you're intentionally fixing the poll, only that stating your opinion above the poll buttons may inadvertently influence readers' opinions. It is all too easy to bias a poll without even realizing one's done so. It might have been better to just state the situation, and then make your case in a later post. But then hindsight is always perfect.

Sigh, Tolgerias I did dispose of, but as for his cronies? I couldn't do anything to ANY other Cowled Wizard in the course of the game. But I like to think Arravis, LG minor god of Retriubtion influenced events for the CWs to either be reformed with more checks and balances against themselves, or simply removed from power in Athkatla. (you wanna talk Machiavellian, see what the gods of Faerun get up to! )

But does this mean IRL police officers never break the laws themselves? Let's disband all those wasteful Internal Affairs branches, then!

Seriously - A) what crimes is Edwin publicly accused of, if he was open for arrest from the CWs, I think he'd be hiding more than he was, and 2) I liked to think of Arravis as being a 'introduced' antibiotic that was helping the body of Athkatla deal with a cancerous immune system that was causing more harm to it than protection and good. If the game had been felxible enough, I would have loved to subdue Rayic, and take him to the Government District, then hurl him before the CW 'panel of judges' (forgot what that was called) and make a rousing monologue about corrupt systems and the need for reform that would've brought a tear to Al Pacino's eye. *sigh*

Of course, the version of SoA that would accomodate that would have shipped on about a dozen CDs, taken up the majority of a 40Gb hard drive (I'm still leery that all the mods I had at one point ran SoA/ToB up to over 2Gb!) and the time required to code all the extra scenery, dialogue etc would mean SoA would be released in a few month's time!

Maybe if I could find someone savvy with coding in the Infinity Engine and similarly motivated, maybe a TC of the post ToB adventures of a paladin that refused godhood to continue working for good 'on the ground'...but then it's a very limited focus, and a lot of people (me included) find a paladin a real pain to play, so the interest wouldn't be there But still something to think about...maybe I'll whip up some fanfic about that very sequence of events...

And one last thing:

I'm missing something - perhaps I was unclear in my original recounting of events. I (grudgingly) accepted Edwin's request to 'dispose of' Reyic - heh, I had been hoping to construe that like a djinn would and remove Reyic as a problem to Edwin without actually KILLING him:

Edwin: Have you disposed of the cowled fool yet?
Arravis: Aye, Reyic will not bother you anymore.
Edwin: But he still lives!
Arravis: Yes? I'm sorry, I didn't realize you wanted me to KILL him - I never would have agreed to that - I have simply done what you asked me to do, cease his interference with you.

Heh, that would've been almost as satisfying as tricking an evil NPC into doing good acts.

But as stated, I followed essentially the same course of action Felinoid and kuemper did: go to talk to Reyic (in hopes of persuading him to leave Edwin alone). Get attacked by mephits - inherently evil creatures that bear investigation - and then golems - neutral constructs that nontheless prevent me from even assuring that Reyic is still alive (maybe Edwin or some other evil magi is going after the CW and left his minions to guard the rear?). Then step up to L3, have a choice of leave or attack, and as I'm *attempting*to*leave* am ATTACKED lethally by him (the f/b took out Aerie the first time I played) so I'm forced to defend myself.

Yes I felt a little dirty after this turn of events, but I'm beginning to think the game devs simply wrote it this way - if you wanna get to Spellhold, you're gonna hafta kill Reyic. *shrug*

Anyways, this is turning into a rather interesting discussion of alignment and character dilemmas; it bears watching...

 

@Felinoid: true, paladins in these games are fanatics and blood-thirsty zealots. Which means that they would kill Edwin first.

@Kuemper: I was refering to the post entitled "Don't wanna kill Firkraag" it was just a joke... Like most people I DO resent irony when I am targeted, there are other parts of the forum where to discuss serious matters like "European petitions about Newfoundland fisheries" which have nothing to do with any game that I know of; perhaps I'm touchy, perhaps I'm just manipulative and "misquote" on purpose (as you seem to imply) but I do resent being associated with any form of "propaganda": a word that is inseparable from authoritarian regimes, misinformation, censorship -the things I most despise- if you want to discuss this please PM me.

The cowled wizards constitute the legitimate branch of the Amnish administration regarding magic users, IMO it is not the part of any paladin to judge the validity of foreign administrations, he/she may not look eye to eye nevertheless a LG character shouldn't promote revolution unless power has been seized unlawfully -Sarevok's name come to mind.
The only reason why I mentioned paladins that much was because of your character Kuemper.

I don't see that much difference between CG, NG and LG when it comes to agreeing to murder and torture, Edwin's words are quite clear about that.

EDIT: I just read apathetic empath's post so I guess I'm rather touchy sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone but the word "propaganda" made me wince.

@apathetic empath: I edited my first entry I still believe that MURDERING someone you don't even know just to please a Red Wizard of Thay is not worthy of a LG character...

[ August 28, 2005, 23:40: Message edited by: Caradhras ]

 

I kill him because I love killing cowled wizards

 

@Caradhas:
You seem to have gotten one of my points, but I think perhaps you missed the other one. An LG character wouldn't even be involved with Renal Bloodscalp at all. The Renal-Mae'Var conflict is a side-quest, and has next to nothing to do with Aran Linvail and getting to Spellhold. It's not so much a question of what an LG character would do as it is a question of how he/she got into that situation in the first place.

IMO, an LG character would never have accepted Renal's proposal. Nor would he/she have accepted the first quest that Mae'Var gives you (stealing). So the question is quite frankly moot.

Now if you want to argue on the point of accepting Edwin's quest on the basis of how 'evil' it is, why don't we start with agreeing to kill not only Mae'Var but also all the (relatively) innocent members of his guild branch. Renal's evil; why don't you have a problem with following his orders to wantonly kill evil for no good reason? If anything, an LG character would welcome the in-fighting between Shadow Thieves. The destablizing ripples could potentially weaken the entire organization, resulting in a steep drop in evil doings!

And so you've just stepped into the moral quagmire that is the only reason that I have ever needed to almost never play LG in these kinds of situations. When the Law isn't Good, it makes it very hard to decide which side to take. Now most LG players have some sort of higher authority (whether religious or secular) to refer to, but the PC is on his own. Were this not a CRPG (and thus somewhat limited in choices), I would suggest seeking advice at the Temple of Helm.

I also don't understand why you keep coming back to 'murder and torture' when what we're talking about is self-defense.

 

Well, here we disagree - in MY opinion a paladin (especially one of Tyr - god of justice & retribution) should judge the validity of governments in general, and take actions when these organizations are being arbitrary, corrupt and making a mockery of the law that the paladin holds so dear. Maybe not overt attacking of CWs, maybe more along the lines of conversing with Cowled Wizards and persuading them by logical debate to reform their organization and cast out the corrupt and make themselves accountable for their actions but I would not stand by and let tyranny continue, even if it did have legitmate origins. Heck, Adolf Hitler was fairly elected to the reichstaag in a free election, and look how that legitimate rule turned out.

Now that I've invoked Godwin's Law on this thread, I'll just reiterate that I think a LG paladin whose deity has the portfolio of justice^1 could not stand by and let the travesty that is the Cowled Wizards continue.


footnote:
1. I always choose tyr for a pally; helm just isn't the right alignment - and has a reputation of not giving a hoot about the public good - torm never seems to be of any note anywhere in the CRPGs, and an ilmateri paladin would probably be off tending to the sick and lame all the time - not enough 'butt-kicking for goodness!" as minsc says.

 

@Felinoid: You don't have to murder Maevar but briong evidence of his wrongdoings. This holds for a good character and not for paladins who as you stated wouldn't get involved with the shadow thieves unless they couldn't do otherwise -in order to free Imoen from Spellhold. Again I agree with what you said, this is a side quest. But if we play a good character who doesn't have to follow a paladin's ethos the point is still valid.
I played a NG Swashbuckler who had no problem with stealing the necklace from the (evil) priestess of Talos but who once confronted with Edwin's demands couldn't comply (murder and torture -lol). Therefore in my game Edwin turned hostile and I decided to take care of Maevar (who is clearly a villain) and his henchmen, I left through the backdoor to avoid getting into scrapes with the other thieves on the first floor. I went back to Renal to make sure he would leave Yoshimo off the hook, I didn't kill Renal because I know that some other thug would take his place anyway and I had bigger fish to fry -Irenicus.

Perhaps, but such a war in the streets is bound to provoke the deaths of innocent bystanders. And it will strengthen the opposite faction, Bodhi's guild which is clearly shown to be the greater evil.
Lawful Goodies and pally types have a knack for getting into inextricable situations...

I keep coming back to "murder and torture" because this is what you agree to by accepting Edwin's mission, this is exactly what he says, when I played my good thief I felt it was too much to swallow... I haven't checked but IIRC there is an answer which goes like this: he will be dead before sunset...

@apathetic empath: Keldorn is a paladin of Torm. It could be enticing to get into a crusade against the cowled wizards, but that would mean threatening the authority of Amn. Most of us hate cowled wizards but they provide a valuable service by restricting the use of magic that could be dangerous for the population. They sell licences but in the text it is implied that such a licence doesn't allow a spellcaster to use magic in an irresponsible way. If you think about the mages who work for Baron Ployer it is not such a bad thing that someone at least tries to prevent magic users from wreaking havoc in the city. They are a bureaucratic entity and Tolgerias is one of the most scheming character in the game, nevertheless they do assume a vital role. Think about the deviants in Spellhold, what would happen if such powerful beings were allowed to roam the streets of Athkatla?

I don't like this kind of comparisons since what we're talking about is merely a game and such a simile tends to simplify what was one of the most tragic events in the history of mankind and caused the deaths of millions of people.
IMO it's rather preposterous to compare Nazi Germany -which relied heavily on propaganda btw- with Amn.

Should a paladin meddle with foreign institutions? It's not so easy to answer this question. You made interesting suggestions and I see now why I don't like playing paladins... Nevertheless I believe that they would first try to change things peacefully before putting every cowled wizards to the sword (replace the word 'cowled wizards' by 'jedi' and 'sword' by 'lightsaber' and you'll see what I mean).

I wonder now what is the nature of the relations between the Order of the Most Radiant Heart and the Cowled Wizards, can anybody shed light on this question?

 

I always had the impression that the institutions of Amn - the Cowled Wizards, the Radiant Heart, the temples, Trademeet, nobles like Nalia's family, and the army - all operated semi-independently of each other. You don't see much evidence of any of these institutions collaborating with each other in the game.

Some interesting points there Caradhras To be honest, it's easy to overlook the positive sides (or positive inadvertant side effects) of the Cowled Wizards' actions.