POLL: Earth God Alignments - Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, etc...

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If the gods of the Earth Realm were classified using the Faerun alignments - what would they be? Lawful Good ... Chaotic Evil?

This topic treads on very dangerous ground...

Poll Information
This poll contains 5 question(s). 38 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Earth God Alignments - Yahweh, Allah, Jehovah, etc... (38 votes.)

Jehovah (Christanity, Judaism) (Choose 1)
* Lawful Good - 29% (11)
* Neutral Good - 13% (5)
* Chaotic Good - 5% (2)
* Lawful Neutral - 24% (9)
* True Neutral - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Neutral - 5% (2)
* Lawful Evil - 16% (6)
* Neutral Evil - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Evil - 3% (1)
* I haven't a clue - 0% (0)

Allah (Islam) (Choose 1)
* Lawful Good - 16% (6)
* Neutral Good - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Good - 18% (7)
* Lawful Neutral - 21% (8)
* True Neutral - 5% (2)
* Chaotic Neutral - 8% (3)
* Lawful Evil - 11% (4)
* Neutral Evil - 0% (0)
* Chaotic Evil - 8% (3)
* I haven't a clue - 11% (4)

Iswara/Brahman (Hinduism) (Choose 1)
* Lawful Good - 0% (0)
* Neutral Good - 13% (5)
* Chaotic Good - 3% (1)
* Lawful Neutral - 13% (5)
* True Neutral - 21% (8)
* Chaotic Neutral - 0% (0)
* Lawful Evil - 3% (1)
* Neutral Evil - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Evil - 3% (1)
* I haven't a clue - 42% (16)

Buddha (Buddhism) (Choose 1)
* Lawful Good - 11% (4)
* Neutral Good - 5% (2)
* Chaotic Good - 8% (3)
* Lawful Neutral - 5% (2)
* True Neutral - 53% (20)
* Chaotic Neutral - 3% (1)
* Lawful Evil - 3% (1)
* Neutral Evil - 0% (0)
* Chaotic Evil - 3% (1)
* I haven't a clue - 11% (4)

Hubbard (Scientology) (Choose 1)
* Lawful Good - 0% (0)
* Neutral Good - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Good - 5% (2)
* Lawful Neutral - 5% (2)
* True Neutral - 13% (5)
* Chaotic Neutral - 13% (5)
* Lawful Evil - 8% (3)
* Neutral Evil - 5% (2)
* Chaotic Evil - 13% (5)
* I haven't a clue - 34% (13)

 

I think it´s this way:

A god is one who understands almost anything, he understands the forces of evil, good, lawful and chaotic and therefore will not pick a side, or in other words: he will be True Neutral


BTW: Budha is no god, Budha was a mortal man

[ March 10, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

You could be right about Buddha. My knowledge of that religion is very, very weak.

In many religions, the gods become mortal or mortal men become gods. Take Hinduism, for instance, the trinity - Brahman - takes three different forms: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. In the Hindu religion, these three forms have been incarnated to human form on multiple occassions.

Off topic: For all you Indiana Jones fans out there: the Temple of Doom used the wrong god. It should have used Ravan.

 

Jehovah, Lawful Good? I hardly think so. Most definitly LN. After all, he ain't all that nice in, well, most of the bible

 

I beg to differ.

We've been hearing this alot lately haven't we? Yahweh/Jehovah wasn't too nice in the Old Testament. All the judgment we see in the Old Testament is because people were violating God's holy Law. Go and try to find a time when God brings death & destruction on people who don't deserve it. You can't do it!

Every death in the Old Testament can be linked back to sin. The Key death in the New Testament (namely the death of Christ) is the only reason why we don't see the same sort of wrath today. God's JUST wrath has been poured out on His Son so that we don't have to face Hell anymore.

'nuff preaching

 

I would still most definetely put the christian god as LN as I do with Allah. Order and law is more important than our sense of "good". Not to mention that I cant really find much evidence anywhere that anyone of them really cares about our wellfare as long as we pay homage and do as we are told.

 

Mathetais, wouldn't you agree that the nature of man's relationship with God changed to become less law-oriented with the arrival of Christ? I would say that God of the Old Covenant is Lawful Good, and that the God of the New Covenant is Neutral Good. Wasn't the whole message of Christ that God wanted to emphasise what Christ said were the greatest two commandments - lovingkindness towards God and one's "neighbour" - over commandments such as not mingling different fibres in your clothing or frying steak in butter? Well, that and grafting wild vines onto the true root of David, or gentiles wouldn't be trying to obey the God of the Jews anyway.

Although I read a really interesting article by - whatsisname, Herschel, the theologian from the University of Tel Aviv - I'm sure you know who I'm talking about since he's an editor of Bible Review. Anyway, the point of the article is that Levitican law should be strictly practiced by "true" Jews (i.e. those with no gentile blood in the maternal line) when they are living in Israel. Which would suggest, if a Christian were to adopt this view, that the law of God is different for the Jews than for Christians and that Jewish relations with God should still be focused on lawfulness rather than relationship. This would make Jehovah/Yahweh Neutral Good for gentiles and Lawful Good for Jews.

 

I refuse to believe that the Law/Chaos/Good/Evil ideology can be applied to reality. Sorry.

But while we're on it, I might as well rant about it.

I hear everywhere (not just in this post) that Christianity was a Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil religion. I half-agree. I would say that in times, the Church has been Lawful. But the basics of Christianity can hardly be addressed as strict Law. Jesus challenged the Pharisees, no? He was a willing martyr. He preached the idea of praying for your enemy, and turning the other the cheek. I will certainly have to agree that it can be based upon Neutral or even Chaotic Good. Believe me, Stephen prayed for his stoners (no, not that term). Chaotic Good? Very possibly.

On Buddhism, I will say, from the little that I know of it, that it is True Neutral. The reasoning behind this is that it focuses on the self. Not much is said toward the community, or a higher purpose. Just become more enlightened, and all is well.

As for Islam, I will say that it is a bit more of a Law-oriented religion, but I don't know too much about it, so I'll just shut up right now. But I will say that terrorists are Neutral or Chaotic Evil. I'm getting cynical here, but I think that they are only using Islam as a cover for their purposes of attacking the West.

Finally, I find it funny that Christianity has been branded here as either Lawful Neutral or Evil (for the most part). On the other hand, few people have voted other religions as evil. Funny.

[ March 10, 2003, 22:57: Message edited by: C'Jakob ]

 

Yahweh/Jehovah: Lawful Evil

Jesus: Lawful Evil

Buddha: Neutral

Allah: Lawful Evil

 

The fact that he simply killed them instead of trying to make them understand pretty much shows my point. If he could send one group a saviour then why couldn't he save a whole bunch of groups?

I don't get the LE thing though, its not realy evil to try and save peoples souls

 

Aikanaro, I was under the impression that the savior is the savior of everyone .

 

The classification Lawful does not directly correlate to the establishment of law. It is rather an indication that one adheres to authority and induces order and structure to behavioral patterns. Actions are always aligned to one's ethos. Neutral (as in between Lawful and Chaotic) is one whose actions are more pragmatic than idealistic; circumstances may cause one's actions to deviate from one's beliefs. Chaotic means that one's actions tend to be more random, often the result of impulse or whimsy, rather than planned in advance. Thus a Chaotic Evil might for a sudden pique allow the hero to go free after trapping him in a devious plot, while a Lawful Evil would never do such a foolish thing.

All this to say that Jehovah/Jesus Christ is consistently Lawful Good. Even in the New Testament it is preached "Be holy even as God in Heaven is holy." It is simply that there is a new way provided; now you are not made holy by your own power and own works, but by the life of Christ purifying from within.

So, in response to Sprite, let me point out that Christ said that to love God and love your neighbor encompassed the whole law of the Old Testament. In other words, simply obeying these two laws will inherently cause you to follow the rest of the law. It's not an order imposed from without, but built from within. Also, on the Jew/Gentile thing, it's clearly stated in the New Testament that God makes no such distinctions; the New Covenant applies to all. "For in Him there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female..."

 

Hmm... I could argue that Galatians 3:28 applies only to Jews who have been baptised Christians... but it's one of those questions that opens a huge can of worms and offends everybody so let's leave it at that.

 

He may just be the saviour of everyone, but that was after god wiped a few groups off the face of the Earth for not been all that nice.
If God was realy thi wonderfuly good guy he wouldn't need to have peopleworshiping him to allow them into Heaven. IMHO he follows his own way regardless of whether it is right. Maybe he could be considered LN with good tendancies.
Also, I believe in nothing I just said, as I don't believe in God. But its an interesting argument

 

I didn't vote, as my religious proclivities would endanger my soul! I feel it appropriate to share a quote I heard the other day, though.

"I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club that annoys me!"

I don't know the author, but that about says it all for me.

 

It all depends on the point of view. Jesus, contrary to somehow obvious impression, imposes very high moral standards - they are more internal, like a moral code, than external, like law, but most certainly they demand discipline and adherence to values and rules. While defying Phariseans he defied those who were twisting laws as they saw fit and imposing new or modified laws for 'commoners' that they weren't concerned to uphold themselves. He also remained obedient to his Father unto death - God for believers is supreme authority - others are meaningless in comparison. Each time Jesus or disciples go against a common custom or *appear* to be violating a law it's immediately explained in a sufficient way.

But, I agree also with the opinion that it's impossible to apply C-N-L E-N-G cathegories to a real person. If one's motivations are both lawful and good, but the results are chaotic and evil will you say he's really so lawful and so good? But... you can't classify him as chaotic and evil outright. Neutral? But LG motivations are hardly if ever allowed here as well as such extremes as chaotic evil doings. Besides, it also proves that neither motivations nor effects can be solely enough to signify alignment. Also... subjective criteria of the do-er or subjective criteria of do-ee's? Or maybe our own criteria or ones we consider objective but other people don't? Bah, impossible, simply said.

As for Christianity, it differs among confessions. RC seems LG while protestants seem much like CG, but again, many protestants are devoted to Old Testament with its stress on laws or puritans (say Neutral or Good, but you can't say they're not Lawful). RC in turn opposes even legitimate authority if necessary - in it's own criteria. To cover the full scope of Good, I'd say Orthodox is NG for close to CG organisation but of much adherence to discipline and prescribed rituals. What's crucial is differentiating between four conditions: in line with alignment, alignment violation, alignment violation covered in alignment exception, *seeming* not in line with alignment but in fact not even needing alignment exception. To give a d&d example, you have a paladin, a holy liberator and a slaver in a country where slavery is allowed and paladins prosecuted. So, the LG paladin breaks law by his sole being there. He as LG intervenes while the slaver is not doing anything illegal and no one other than state organs is entitled to intervene. You have three violations of law. And, what's more, the paladin probably joins his forces with the holy liberator (CG). So, what now? But, if slavery is banned the Holy Liberator may be acting as an agent of law. And the paladin could then, against the law, intervene to prevent the slaver from being killed on the spot out of hatred and vengeance. So, CG holy liberator defending the law against LG paladin? Right. You see how the alignment system is lacking.

Christianity promotes its own laws over any local law (unless simply organisational regulations), but such is the nature of religion that it holds dieties and thier laws above mortals and their laws. Other than that it promotes being a good citizen - for the common good of all and of society, not for law-loving. It's laws are always for a reason (for good, not for the sake of regulating things), but again, they're of utmost importance and binding. So, a passer-by might say NG (do what they see as good and don't care for the rest), a believer LG (good God's will), a non-believer state's official CG (good intentions, but break laws, customs, orders etc)or even CN (if he completely rejects their reasons) and an ex-believer or not practicing one - LN (too strict, all those do's and don't's etc), an anticlerical N (ie do anything profitable to the church) etc. 'Evil' options are very personal or refer to abuses on the part of particular members or officials of a church, so I don't devote space to them - they're a variation of above given choices.

So, if it's virtually impossible to classify the mortal believers as taken as one religion, how could anyone classify a deity? Especially a monotheistic one without any portfolio, special patronages etc, knowing everything and with no limitations in power.

 

Sprite -- in Christ, is there any other kind?


Depaara, why don't you expand on that subject? I'd be interested to hear more.

 

You mean my funny quote, Cap? Someone mentioned that the majority of Muslims are decent people, and I agree with that. I don't see any point in getting angry with God when it is the actions of those who CLAIM to follow him that I am annoyed with. This goes for "Muslims" who destroy skyscrapers, "Christians" who murder abortion doctors, and "Catholics" and "Protestants" in Ireland who set bombs that kill children. In all of these cases, it's the people I get angry with, not their religion or God himself (by whatever name they call him).

Now, if you were referring to the fact I didn't vote, given my veneration and respect for God, whatever name he is called, I would feel blasphemous if I started rating him by a game's standards. Please note that this applies only to me -- I am not being sanctimonious and calling others blasphemers!

 

Gods name is Seabót.

 

Capstone, my point is that there are two ways of looking at that verse depending on your religious beliefs.

1) Jews are "unsaved" and therefore can only serve God by being baptised as Christians, at which point they become subject to the same religious laws as Christians. I take it from your last post that this is your view, which I didn't realise at the time of my last response.

2) God loves Christians and his Chosen People alike, i.e that Jesus has offered the love of the Hebrew God to gentiles. This does *not* necessarily mean that Jews and Christians are expected to serve God the same way.

Since I'm not a Christian and we therefore share no reference points for serious theological argument, let's leave it there. I'm trying to explain my point, not contradict yours. Like Depaara, I'm not interested in converting anyone or being converted {insert: here at SP}.

[ March 14, 2003, 17:48: Message edited by: Sprite ]