POLL: Half-Orcs and Racial Abilities

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Well, it's the general consensus (for the most part) that Half-Orcs and their racial abilities are severely under par. Well, I think so anyway. But, even so, to me; The '-2 Intelligence' shot that H-Os get is a bit harsh.
That being said, if a Half-Orc is raised in human lands, wouldn't the H-O have a perfectly acceptable intelligence level?
It doesn't seem right that Orcs -2Int, as in most of the literature I've read, most of the full-blooded Orcs seem quite clever. Or, rather, the 'top-Orcs' seem to be.
As a 'hero' Half-Orc (PC), it stands to reason that they can't be just as clever.

Since it's part of the 'Official' Rules, my local club wont let me have a Half-Orc that doesn't get the INT penalty, but, I've made myself a Half-Orc Wizard, and he seems to be doing quite well. LOL, in fact, he's the party's leader. I don't know how, but he ended up being the smartest PC...

Anyways, what do you guys think? Half-Orcs under par? Or just fine the way they are?

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 17 user(s) have voted.
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Poll Results: Half-Orcs and Racial Abilities (17 votes.)

Half-Orcs and Racial Abilities (Choose 1)
* Half-Orcs are the best!!! Feel my wrath! - 0% (0)
* I play as a Half-Orc from time-to-time. - 53% (9)
* I never play as a Half-Orc - For good reason. - 29% (5)
* Meh - It doesn't really matter in the long run. - 6% (1)
* Half-Orcs!? Boo! *Hiss*, *Growl* - The worst PC race. - 12% (2)

 

Yes, it's really gimped, but don't get me started about the Half-Elves. *growl*

 

INT is not just about being clever, it's about memory and learning abilities. Perhaps Half Orcs suffer from ADD... pun intended...

Half Orcs get a bonus to STR which is very handy since it helps to deal a lot of damage. But the penalties are heavy though. I guess it aimed at avoiding making them the "best" race for powergamers...

It's a pity because I felt that there was something to be made from a RPing perspective with a Half Orc Bard (lower CHA doesn't help either).

The way it is, it's harder but more rewarding to play a Half Orc Wizard or Bard.

 

Just looking at the skull of a halforc, I can see why a -2 to INT.

 

To balance things out, Str bonuses and Con bonuses are suppose to be rather dehabilitating in terms of penalties to other attributes because Str and Con have much large impact on game play then Int, Wis and Cha do. The DMG (which I can't currently get my hands on) explains the rationale behind the doings of ability adjustments as well as giving a system for implementing ability adjustments.

We also have to remember that orcs have +4 to Str, -2 to Int, -2 to Wis and -2 to Cha.

I tend to have more issue with the fact that half-orcs only get darkvision 60 ft. while every other race as several other goodies to go along with their ability adjustments. Dwarves are far superior to half-orcs because dwarves have a large array of benefits besides their +2 to Con.

 

Can't stand Half-Orc characters. Idiots "who can't speek proper" with no bonuses to get you to play as them. Give me a good Tiefling any day.

 

Caradhras is right. Intelligence is book learning and memory. Wisdom is cunning and guile.

Orcish Culture, and the reality of most half orcs would emphasize book learning and manners less and brute force more.

Half orcs are great for what you want them to do--fighting. Fighters, barbarians and Monks benefit from the strength. Wizzards, Sorcerors and Paladins aren't impossible, but you need to have a good backstory and some good RP skills.

 

I can see the INT penalty, but what's with the nerfage of WIS and CHA? The innate cunning inherited from their orc ancestors should make up for a lack of mnemonic abilities in a half-orc. Also, I feel that charisma is far more relative than D&D rules make it out to be. If their innate charisma has to be nerfed, then why not give half-orcs a +2 bonus to any interactive skill when dealing with any orc/half-orc? A little compensation for the +4/-6 ability cut would be nice, after all.

 

Yeah BlckDeth, the 'PC rules' in the D&D game hardly ever reflect what they actually are. Even though PC's are supposed to be 'heroes' (The average human has an '8' in every stat?). It stands to reason that the 'average' Orc wouldn't be too charismatic.

But, it seems to be, that at least some Orcs must be smart/clever/charismatic. As an Orc 'Warlord' would have to band together a cohesive army. Non-PCs get all the fun :'(

 

Orcs are typically CE so it would stand that their leadership styles rest less on CHA (like with neutrals) or heirarchy (like lawfuls) but instead rely on Str or HD. Orc societies tend to be run by whoever has the best "sword arm" rather then the one with the most leader like qualities (that would also help explain why such a martial society controls so little of the world in the typical RP world).

The average orc has an ability score of Str 15, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 8, Cha 8 (3.0 MM) which reflects their inability to work together cohesively with other orcs. Orcs with high Int scores or Cha who achieve a position of power tend to be particularly dangerous warlords.

The average human is reflected by 10s and 11s for ability scores. Seeing as they have more variation, their odd and even scores aren't assigned to particular abilities like other humanoid races in 3.0. I.E. Elf-Str 10, Dex 12, Con 8, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 11 Dwarf-Str 11, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.

 

Well, we've gotten a little of topic, since this is about Half-Orcs, and not full-blooded Orcs.

But, if you really think about it, it doesn't really matter. Depending on how you roll your stats. My 'gaming group' rolls 4D6 and then pick the three highest, and then distribute. So, it's not really uncommon for someone to have two or three 18s for primary stats. But, I understand that not everyone gets their stats this way.

My Half-Orc Wizard ended up having 16 Int (18-2) and 10 Cha (12-2). He's okay in a fight with 17 Str (15+2), 14 Dex, 10 Con...And then he's left with 13 Wis. He's not to shabby a character. But, then I rolled half-decent too.
When we were running through who should be the 'leader', the fighters had 13 and 8 Int, the rogue had 14 Int and our cleric had 11 Int. I accidently ended up being the smartest character whilst being a Half-Orc too! Except, I've got the third-best charisma - ousting the two fighters.

It's quite easily done, since I have 17 Str and 16 Int (not including bonuses), he's still pretty Orcy, he's just not stupid. Bull's Strength and Mage Armour also gets him 'into the thick of it' with his staff. Which he regularly does.
My character would still rather fight than talk...But, now he's just got a different weapon - spells. Eventually, I might throw in one level of Barbarian for Rage and Weapon Proficiencies...LOL; Beserker Wizard.

But, like everyone else, my group just looked at me and said "You're a Half-Orc WHAT!?"

Probably the most important thing to remember when dealing with Orcs is that they're simple, not stupid. They don't have to 'speek lyke dis' if you don't want them to.
I play mostly in the Forgotten Realms setting, and, I kind of get the feeling that Gruumsh (the greater Orc God) doesn't want stupid followers.

**Spoiler**
This is reinforced in R.A. Salvatore's Hunter's Blades trilogy when Obould gets blessed by Gruumsh with INTELLIGENCE more than anything else. Sure, he gets faster/stronger, but his intelligence is what gets him places.

 

With good dice rolls, try a half orc Monk. The strength boost gives them truly nasty damage potential. And if you can throw in a few zingers, you have a really fun character to play...

 

One thing that comes to mind is that when roleplaying, quite a lot is possible. I myself like to play the non-stereotype character. A Half-Orc Wizard (best wiz I ever played sofar ), a female drow paladin (+2 CHA is your friend), a dwarven bard...

My point is, if you want to play a smarter-than-average H-O (or more quick-witted, etc.) don't let a max INT of 16 stop you. If I may use an example from a CRPG, Jaheira from Baldur's Gate only has an INT of 10 (!), even though she doesn't exactly strike me as 'stupid'. Statistics are used for other statistics, IMHO roleplaying schouldn't be reduced to ruleplaying.

P.s.: Sorry if I went a bit off-topic, but I feel like I'm on a roll..

Edit: I guess that means I think that the H-O racials are justified.

 

Exactly, the rules are about balance, and a +2 Strength was only balanced by a -2 to 2 other stats. Play the character as you desire, the numbers only affect the dice rolls...

 

Well Sjerrie, that's pretty much my point. In the long run, Half-Orcs don't really have any penalties.
Other races have some abilities that eventually become pointless. At level 8 or even 9, you don't ever think to yourself; "Hey, I'm an Elf, I get +2 to Spot checks." Don't get me wrong, +2 to Spot it excellent at level 1 or so. But, if you've played the 'right' class and maxed Spot/Listen/Search/etc, then the extra +2 hardly matters. Sometimes you'll thank Tymora that you have +2, but not that often.

But, of course, Elves also get long-term bonuses like immunities to sleep/etc and weapon proficiencies. Which, are good until your character dies/retires.
Humans get an extra feat and skill points. In PnP, this isn't all that great. But, it's pretty noticable in CRPGs.

Half-Orcs get Darkvision. Sure, it's not great, but it's pretty handy. And H-Os don't get any 'superfluous' abilites, keeping their race simple (not stupid!) and fairly easy to play.

The difference between 16 and 18 Intelligence is pretty neglible. Not at first of course. But, all characters eventually get to 'that point' where stats hardly matter, once you have a helmet/circlet/headband that gives you +4 (or more) to Intelligence, and a 'Talking Sword With Skill Points And Spells', and casting Level 15 Fireballs, you can think to yourself;
"Heh, and to think I started with 16 Intelligence."

Except in CRPGs when min/maxing (munchkin-ing) is almost a staple of the game. Not always. But, I can remember back to my days of BG/IWD and sitting there for about 10 minutes trying to get a decent stat-line...Of course, there are also the people who spent 40 minutes (or longer) getting a good stat-line.
Or, even in IWD-II where your statline for your 'fighter-class' character was;
STR: 18, DEX: 16, CON: 18, INT: 3, WIS: 18, CHA: 3

...Ah well.

 

Cheesegear, I have to disagree on a few points.

- Immunity to Sleep is not really a long term bonus for elves, seeing how there's a HD cap on the spell. Weapon Proficiencies are only good if you want to play a pure class rogue or a pure class cleric without the war domain. Maybe a Bard. The other caster classes have little use for the martial proficiencies the elves get.
- Humans are one of the most powerful races. The extra feat and skillpoints are plain awesome for any build, especially one that's skill- or feat intensive. Humans are pretty much on par with dwarves, which are usually considered the most powerful race.

 

Generally agree with Faragon, save that the martiap prof bow is usefull for mages/sorcerers with decent dexterity.

But all in all i find that balance is not much of an issue in P&P, you can take any kinda character and have a great and fun and good character outof it. from a powergamer perspective like a CRPG i can understand why some would not pick halforc yeah.

 

Raptor, for a Bard I'd say 'sure'. But a sorcerer or wizard has so many spells to use once they're past say, level 5, I'd hardly call it a long term advantage. If you're still forced to use a longbow at that point, instead of exclusively using spells, I'd say you need to spend some time tweaking your spell selection

Now, if you need a martial proficiency to gain acces to a PRC, that's a different deal. And, as one of my personal favourites:

Wearing martial weapons helps in the "not looking like a wizard" category. Looking like a wizard is what will get you killed first, in general, since intelligent enemies will know they need to take the biggest threat down first, ie the mage.

My current wizard, a small dwarf, is dressed in a chain shirt, wields a dwarven waraxe and his general clothing and physique screams "ranger" (I love how my dwarven wiz has hp nigh equal to the cleric )

 

Jaheria does however have high wisdom and charisma which for RPing in the terms of statistics means she's perceptive and has a way with words. Specifically characters with high charisma scores are never going to SOUND stupid as they are good communicators. Besides an Int of 16 is considered exceptional human intelligence, anything beyond 19 is superhuman intelligence (Rping superhuman intelligent is damn near impossible ).

While it's true you shouldn't RP you characters rigidly to your stat score, a half-orc with a low Int and Cha score should have poor analytical skills and poor communication skills. Using mental scores to reflect personality forces a player to think through assigning his/her dice score or assigning his ability points. Specifically with a by point system, it prevents a particular stat from being sacrificed for the sake of other stats (specifically Int and Cha for Fighters) and adds a lot more purpose to mental stats which predominately don't have a lot of purpose for non-casting classes. Since casters suffer from low Dex and Con scores, I figure fighers should suffer the same for Int and Cha.

Personally I've never used half-orc as a sorcerer, wizard or bard (I have to imagine a half-orc bard would have a lot of trouble finding work due to racism). I never played a half-orc with an Int or Cha score higher then 10 (they've always been relatively simple uninspiring people), but as a fighter or barbarian even only using the elite array, you typically have an starting Str score of 17 which makes them absolutely nasty in melee combat. Used as a almost purely a "meleer" or someone who mixes melee with throwing weapons, their quite powerful. I still prefer dwarves as melee combatants (high con plus automatic proficiency in dwarven waraxe, yum), but half-orcs tend to out do their human counterparts. A enraged level 1 elite array NPC half-orc barbarian (Str 21, Dex 14, Con 17) with a greataxe (1d12+7/x3) can do a lot more damage to a beginning adventuring party then you'd think.

[ January 27, 2007, 19:42: Message edited by: Ilmater's Suffering ]

 

Faragon: I guess it depends on campaign and players, i tend to avoid wasting using a fireball to pick of 4 goblins, and it feels to dumb to just "stand about" while the fighters dispatch things.

Also its the roleplaying of actually trying ot help do something

That and I tend to play wizard with loads of "utilitarian spells" and no near as much "combat spells" as I image most others use.