POLL: Imoen / Sarevok: Would it REALLY be incest?

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The parent in common would be only Bhaal (since I doubt he would come back to rape the same woman twice when he could instead inflict fresh pain on another ), and as a former god (he was made mortal during the Time of Troubles) his genetic effect would be somewhat in question. Would he have stable DNA or would it fluctuate to promote a healthy gene pool? Would it be of a specific race? Would it even exist at all, or just be an empty shell for cloning???

And on the emotional side, could you really call him any kind of father? I wonder if products of rape from the same man but different women having relations are even considered incest, or just a cosmic coincidence. And half-siblings in general...I just don't know.

So, I leave it up to you to decide.

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 41 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Imoen / Sarevok: Would it REALLY be incest? (41 votes.)

Imoen / Sarevok: Would it REALLY be incest? (Choose 1)
* Definitely yes - 7% (3)
* Definitely no - 41% (17)
* Maybe, depending on the genetic factor - 20% (8)
* It's only wrong if they're aware of it and do it anyway - 24% (10)
* I just don't know either... - 7% (3)

 

I voted definitely no

I wouldn't even say their siblings. Yes their both children of Bhaal but as Viconia points out in one of the *TOB* Dialouges when talking about Imoens relation to you: "Your common parent is a god. That hardly counts towards any sort of common genetic bond"

Also whether Bhaal is made a mortal during the time of troubles is irrelevant since he foresaw his own death and seeded mortals prior to this event.

 

Fel, for the love of god, you've GOT to get a hobby. Yikes.

 

I have two hobbies, D&D and computers. So naturally the games on this site and the site itself are a good extension.

And what you were looking at is "stream of consciousness", all thought up in less than a minute. I still have plenty of time for other things.

For the record, I think it would depend on the genetics, but based on the Viconia quote that theGodless gave, that's probably clear too.

 

Now this is truly an odd topic.

Nothing in the game that I can recall indicates that the Children of Bhaal were the result of rape. Doesn't <charname's> mother indicate she was willing, even anxious, to have a child with divine heritage during the interludes with the Solar?

I imagine that a deity could exude considerable charm if he wanted

 

Have you ever played BG1 or read FR? Bhaal "sought out women of every race and forced himself on them". The PC's mother was a special case: a priestess of Bhaal.

As for the charm, well of course he could waste all that time wooing a woman, or he could just take her. And remember that Bhaal was evil; he wouldn't give a sh!t about just using women and throwing them away. I'm not particularly fond of the idea, but I'm not about to ignore the facts because I find them unpleasant.

 

I voted 'definitely no' for the same reasons as theGodless.

As to whether it was rape or not I don't think it matters. As Felinoid said I don't think Bhaal would waste time wooing. He wasn't interested in establishing a relationship with any of the women. Just wanted as many carriers of his essence as he could get.

 

In the spirit of what divinity is, which is transcendent over mortality in all respects, I think it's naive to say that two 'children' of a deity share any common 'genetics'. Gods don't have DNA or anything, they're powers, forces of nature or whatever imagery you prefer. A god-child is half mortal, half divine.

But nevermind that - if incest is a major taboo in FR, and if the characters perceive each other to be siblings, then it doesn't matter a great deal whether they actually are or not. Judging by the game's dialog I'd say there's a definite tendency towards sister/brother mentality between the PC and Sarevok, and apparently the PC and Imoen had a sibling relationship even before the events of chapter four.

 

Bhaal is also the God of Murder and rape is one way of murdering someone, specifically for a woman in a medieval environment where her virginity has special significance. Nothing like rape to drive her into the arms of suicide... which could bring her even more pain when Bhaal or Orcus brings her back as an allip.

 

The incest taboo that exists in our world was derived from observations that siblings mating produced undesirable effects in their offspring (due entirely to genetics and inheritance, not some mystical 'oh-they're-related' body mechanism).

So, given the notion that Bhaal is a god, we can have the following three possibilities:
1)Bhaal's avatar has no DNA.
2)Bhaal's avatar's DNA is variable, changing at Bhaal's will.
or
3)Bhaal's DNA is perfect.

The problem with #1 is that mammalian reproduction in general requires two beings, a male and a female. Humans (and presumably fantasy humanoid races) have two sets of every chromosome (except the sex chromosome), one set from each parent, from which traits are derived. The sex chromosomes are (in normal circumstances) XX or XY. In either case, the female parent contributes the X, and the male contributes either a second X or a Y. Trisomy and monosomy (variations in chromosome numbers, + and - respectively) are generally fatal, or cause severe developmental problems. So, Bhaal had to contribute DNA to the child somehow.

2) This is a plausible occurrence: Bhaal's avatar DNA could change at Bhaal's will, so that he could contribute whichever traits he wanted to his offspring. If he specifically wanted to imbue his children with mental and physical restrictions due to disadvantageous traits, there would be repercussions for an "incestual" Bhaalspawn-Bhaalspawn relationship. It seems more likely to me that he didn't really consider whether that could happen or not, since all of the Bhaalspawn were supposed to be executed by Bhaal's cult anyway. I think the idea that he has variable DNA is absolutely necessary for him to produce offspring with sexually incompatible races (that is, a gnome and a half-orc probably couldn't produce children, and a dwarf and an elf would probably have similar problems).

3) The notion that Bhaal's avatar has perfect DNA makes sense, also. As a god in mortal form, why would he create anything less than a perfect specimen for a carrier of his soul? Perfect DNA would also mean no dangerous heritable traits, and so the "incest" would have no negative consequences.

So, the practical concerns over incest are moot. This leaves the social concerns to deal with. Who of the general population has the nerve to tell bhaalspawn, "Hey, dude, that's wrong!"? I'm pretty sure they'd do that just as soon as they'd walk into the Shadow Thieves' HQ demanding that the guild shut down while waving a sword around.

So, the social external forces are a moot point, too; this leaves only the opinions of those involved to decide whether it's okay or not. Some people see the characters (especially PC-Imoen) as sharing a sibling bond, but I've always found it to be more along the lines of childhood-friends. You may point to their childhoods being in close proximity with one another, yet, honestly, how many children were there in Candlekeep? Not that many, I'd wager. Did they really have anyone else to play with? Of course they were close!

I'll admit, I've never taken Sarevok into my party (I just...cannot...do it). However, nothing in my run-throughs with Imoen suggests that she and the PC use "brother/sister" in anything more than a friendly affectionate way. And, given their unique heritage, I think it's their decision whether or not they're truly related, or if they just share a common curse, and common experiences.

*Note: I do not have extensive knowledge of FR (what I have is from IWD1/2, BG1/2, NWN, and the Icewind Dale books), nor do I claim to be an expert in genetics (although consulting my textbook for Bio 100 - Genetic Human Diversity). This is merely an application of the knowledge I posess, and is by no means an expert analysis. Just the result of a bored college sophomore deciding to argue a point.

 

Is there any reason at all to assume that the same underlying genetic and physiological mechanisms exist in the BGII complete fantasy world as that exist in the real world? If not, any such comparison is completely pointless.

Also, it is fairly obvious that Bhaal doesn't convey any specific DNA into his chosen victim, otherwise you couldn't be a "pure" of any race. How can you play as a gnome if you are half "godish" or whatever race you choose to assign to a god?

In conclusion, attempting to attach any semblence to realism to a fantasy game is pointless.

 

What do you think I am?

I'm a little disappointed that I haven't heard the fourth option argued, even in opposition to it. It makes me wonder if any of you missed it, or if you're just ignoring it because you don't consider it a possibility. From my first post:

The point I was trying to make with this is my uncertainty of how whatever forced the gods into mortal form did it (haven't read the books ). Whether it/they gave them their non/variable/perfect DNA, or gave them normal mortal DNA. In the former case I wouldn't think it'd matter as Zenastin says, but in the latter case...

Then again, it could all be moot if he did all his mating before then. *shrug* Any experts in the house?

EDIT: @nataben:
Here's your answer, attempted spoilsport.

The delineation of humans, half-elves, and elves is very straight-forward. You have to have 100% elven blood to be elven, 50%-99.9999% elven to be half-elven, and if you have less than 50% elven blood you're completely human. The same might very well apply to the shorter races, but in the reverse: any human blood would simply be cancelled out.

Though that then raises the question of if there are any full-blooded elves or other races of Bhaalspawn, which there do turn out to be. Sendai could be only half-drow, and perhaps even Yaga Shura could be a half-giant, but unless they majorly screwed up, Abazigal cannot be a half-dragon. (A mistake in ToB? Never. ) I guess this train of thought only further disproves the "fourth option"; thanks anyway, nat.

[ March 01, 2006, 05:05: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Yes: the most common race is called "humans". If they wanted to convey that they were similar to humans, but not the same, they could have coined a similar term showing the difference.

The variability of avatar DNA would fundamentally alter the form -- into, say, a gnome or an elf, meaning that genetically the Bhaalspawn would be of said race and not "godish."


@Fel: You know, that is a really good question. I know that in Dragonlance, two gods who were made mortal did not experience shifts in their avatars' DNA. However, one of them had already assumed avatar form when the immortality was removed, and the other surrendered immortality voluntarily, and it is unclear whether he appeared in avatar form before or after said surrender.

I guess someone needs to do some research into how exactly Ao plunked the gods onto the mortal plane.

 

I think it's not really incest. After all, while Bhaal himself had become mortal, he still contained godly DNA. Otherwise, his children would've been pretty normal.

 

I doubt the validity of arguing scientific details, since FR is not a scientific world. Mammalian reproduction in the real world requires two sets of DNA, but what does that have to do with a fantasy world with magic and gods and elves and fairies? How do you explain any of those in real world terms?

A FR deity can presumably induce birth in a mortal the same way they do everything else, by willing it. A decent corollary in real world mythology is Jesus Christ; he "took his flesh from Mary" according to the virgin birth doctrine. Obviously he didn't get a Y chromosome from Mary, but this is a deity we're talking about - take a step back.

What I said earlier wasn't based on my own thoughts, it's taken verbatim from the game's dialog. The protagonist thinks of Imoen as a childhood friend, sometimes annoying, like a sister. If you examine her dialog in the original game, you'll see that this is entirely consistent. Personally I'd prefer a more developed character for Imoen too, but I wouldn't pretend such a thing was canon.

I don't believe so, or at least not where half-divine births are concerned. However, if the protagonist's mortal parent was an elf, then s/he is an elf. If the parent was a half-elf then s/he is a half-elf. Simple.

I wasn't aware that Bhaal was mortal during the Time of Troubles. To the best of my understanding, the powers were forced into avatar form and cut off from the source of their divine power, not forced to become mortal. An avatar is still entirely divine, even if it is corporeal.

 

Says you. I still maintain that the magic in D&D settings is just a science like any other. I'll assume you're all familiar with the famous quote and move on.

And he could have altered his DNA for regular conception much easier (less expenditure of power). Again, he "sought out women of every race and forced himself on them", not "sought out women of every race and planted babies within their wombs from on high".

Um, same difference. If you take a divine being and cut them off from everything that makes them divine, what do you have left but mortal? And then how did Bhaal die if he was not mortal? I could understand having his avatar killed and made unavailable for a while (a la Demogorgon), but then he wouldn't die as a deity. He had to have been mortal to permanently die, unless 'canon' FR does it considerably different from every other campaign I've ever encountered, including a couple FR ones. Powerful, you're damn right he'll kick a$$; divine powers past what an uber high-level cleric could do, no.

 

As a biotechnologist, I'm gonna go with the genetic factor

 

Magic in some settings could pass as a science, I would say that magic in D&D cannot. But unless we want to derail the topic arguing about whether FR is scientifically justifiable, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As far as I'm aware, Bhaal isn't permanently dead. His inert body still exists somewhere in the Astral plane; D&D deities can never die permanently, regardless of what happens to them (insert Lovecraft quote here). But it's my understanding that a deity's avatar is made from divine power, not mortal flesh. Where is that quote from? A note from Gorion in BG1, right? I hate to say it, but Gorion was probably not an authority on the mating rituals of the gods.

Edit: one other interesting tidbit I just thought of - deities do have the power to cause conception in a mortal at will, and even with a particular genetic sequence, as in the case of Adalon, to whom some elven power (Rillifane, I suppose) granted the children of her long dead partner. It's still questionable in my mind that powers have any need for genetics or other properties of mortal biology when creating progeny of their own, though. I'd go so far as to say that if a power employed the usual biological method for conception, the child wouldn't be a god-child at all.

[ March 01, 2006, 08:54: Message edited by: Prine ]

 

One thing I don't understand is... isn't the PC's mother a human priestess no matter what? How can you be a gnome when your mother is a human prietess and you daddy is a god?

 

I'm of a similar opinion as is Prine. That Bhaal's DNA is variable, and whatever race your mother is, that's what race you are. I can't really comment on nataben's question, as I don't remember the last time I played through as one of the short races. I'm usually human, elf, or half-elf as they are always romancable (halflings too, but I rarely play them) and since your "mother" would look pretty much alike no matter which one you pick, I never noticed.

Anyway, the reason I favor the variable DNA theory is that based on the sheer number of races available to the Bhaalspawn, there doesn't seem to be a real genetic link there. There's no way 50% of the DNA can be similar and have the children be of entirely different races. So, in case you haven't concluded by no, I voted definitely no.