POLL: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter

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I was reading the post about the "lightweight" swordmaster and I wonder what would be the best character: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter.
Both would be great but with very different options.

The Kensai/Thief is going to use Backstab a lot, but won't be able to wear heavy armours to do so and will have to wield weapons that can be used to backstab opponents with the option of using any items (sweet -even if it is impossible to backstab with Carsomyr- and also scrolls).

The Swashbuckler/Fighter is going to be a much more straightforward fighter, getting access to Fighter HLAs and being able to use missile weapons and wear armours and bracers (without UAI use any item). Basically less of a liability in the early stages of the game.

As far as I can tell it's a real tie.
So I wonder which you would choose and why.

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 18 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter (18 votes.)

Kensai/Thief or Swashbuckler/Fighter? (Choose 1)
* Kensai/Thief - 67% (12)
* Swashbuckler/Fighter - 33% (6)

 

Definitely a K->T. A Swash->Fighter is a waste of a good Swashie, if you ask me. Pure swashbucklers get Whirlwind anyway, and the trap HLAs are the best. And I'd rather dual a Swashie to a mage anyway, to stealth in conjunction with area spells. The AC bonuses don't hurt either.

Not to mention that Kai backstabs do a ****load of damage, especially if you've got CF to stun them and then Assassinate. All you really need from the fighter part is the extra attacks (lvl13).

I'd say the choice is between K->T and a pure Swashie, but the K->T wins hands down. A Swash->Mage, on the other hand...

 

As this is ToB, I'd say K/T for definite. In unmodded SoA, it'd be a closer thing but probably still the K/T as winner. Although a 10/x Swashbuckler/Fighter is a pretty handy character, I'd prefer a 9/x K/T 90% of the time. Just remember that Barkskin & Backstab are your best friends.

 

Kensai / Thief is one of the best character builds in the whole game, let alone this poll so there is no contest for me.

 

...and you got really lucky on your first play through the game HB!

I agree with the above sentiments. If you want power, dual that Kensai into a Thief after either level 13 (maximum ApR), 15 (one more Kai), or 21 (GWW).

 

What about Barbarians and foes that are immune to backstab? Dragons come to mind. I guess that's the 10% left from the Magpie's math.

@Felinoid: A straight Swashbuckler can only compete with a Swashbuckler/Fighter if he has scrolls or traps at hand (which means less Whirlwinds because of UAI and HLA spent in traps). Using traps means that either you already know the game like the back of your hand or are just being paranoid since otherwise in the middle of a fight you need to retreat and exploit the fog of war. I agree that Swashbuckler is really a nice option for dual classing as Mage or even Cleric but IMHO as a single class Thief the lack of a backstab ability is a major drawback.

I played a Swashbuckler/Fighter (dualled at level 15 it took me a while to get the Thief levels back) and it was so boring (because a plain fighter no matter how good he is requires less management than a Thief or Spellcaster) but he was really something.

I tried the Kensai/Thief build once, but reaching level 13 with a Fighter is a real pain (point and click gets pretty lame after a while). IMHO low level Kensai are really a liability: no armours; which means you really need to have good old Jaheira around... At higher levels the Kensai is a force to be reckoned with though.

 

Kensais are soooo overused.

 

It comes down to a choice between Assassinate and Greater Whirlwind.
UAI and traps may tip the scale in favour of the Kensai/Thief (it also means less HLAs spent on Assassination); but when confronting a Big Bad Boss who is immune to backstab (or protected with Stoneskin), the Kensai/Thief is going to be less effective. Whereas the Swashbuckler/Fighter has only to pick up an appropriate weapon and hack away with GWW.
I'm still undecided.

 

Caradhras ... there's no way I'd play a Swashie / Fighter if a Kensai / Thief is avaliable! Thieves for me are bout backstabbing! And just like Fel said, it's going to do ALOT of damage on a kai backstab !


Don't get me wrong, Swashbuckler's are freakin awesome, but without backstab, they're pretty much out for me.

Just go with a Kensai/Thief and make sure the best piece of armour goes to him when you get the chance!

 

My hesitation comes from the fact that although you can backstab 'average' opponents and reduce them to bits and chunks with ease, you can't apply this tack to real baddies.
A Swashbuckler/Fighter is going to wade among the fray and won't get such spectacular hits (like the Kensai/Thief) but he will be a more dependable option when confronting the bosses.

 

Doesn't that just make you want to play a character with the abilities of all the thief kits! It would be sooooooooooo good! You would have the super abilities of a fighter, some kickass trap skills and OMFG ... backstabbing would be off the charts!

I just get tingly thinking about that!!! hehe

But neways,

@ Caradhras ... I totally agree. The swash mix isn't going to get those crazy ass backstab hits, but he will last longer in the fight, ALOT longer. But you see, I'm a damage man, cause as much as you can in the least possible time: hence, Kai with Backstab just about sums it up for me!

 

I am going to throw out another option for you. How about a Stalker duel to a Cleric. Once you get the x3 backstab from the Stalker level you could duel him into a cleric for the buffing spells, which never hurt. Not only that but you could dual wield some pretty cool weapons. I am not sure which blunt weapons allow for backstab. Maybe someone here can help out with this combo more.

 

I think it was Fel who said he loved Ranger/Clerics, so it might be a good idea to ask him. If it wasn't I apologise! Personally, I'm not really that fond of em, Stalkers just annoy me because they're like tryhard fighter/thieves, which do the job much better. And honestly, I really hate it when thieves are dual wielding blunt weapons, I just don't like it!

But hey, that's my opinion, I'm sure ALOT of people disagree with me here, so I'll just stop here and stick my 1 passion ... Thieves that can do a Sh!tload of backstab damage with a bit of fighter (Arcane if I'm lucky!) prowess to back em up!

But I've heard alot of good things about Ranger/Clerics anyway, so go ahead and wow me!

 

Well, Beren's doing okay in my BoM party, but he has yet to really wow me (though once I get Crom Faeyr, that might change rather quickly); he's pretty much a walking hospital for now. You're probably thinking of someone else.

As to blunt weapons that can backsmack (term trademarked by The Magpie), you're limited to clubs and staves. The very simple rule for backstabbing is that if a single-classed thief can use it, you can backstab with it.

 

Sorry Fel! My mistake, I'll look for the correct person now and apologise to both or ya!

AND SEE! Another reason there's a clear reason why thieves were the main class meant to backstab, not rangers. Hey, rangers are great, just leave all that to the rogues thanks!

 

@Abdel: You can't dual class a Stalker into a Cleric. Sorry.
Stalkers are said to go up to x5 Backstab, check this thread. I can't remember in my last ToB game with Valygar how far he got with the multipliers.

The Ranger/Cleric MC is certainly one of the most powerful class in the game but guys this is way
The Stalker is a good backstabber but not as good as the Kensai/Thief only a lot easier to pull off.

@Sebastian II: agreed, nevertheless backstab is not going to be useful against really big foes (dragons, demons, even 'little' bosses like Gronmir, etc). IMHO this is a real problem because you can always dish damage to the average villain and get away with it, but try backstabbing Demogorgon.

 

Where'd you get that idea? The only class you can dual to from Stalker is Cleric. The stat requirements are impressive, and you have to be human, but that's it.

 

Felinoid I am still in pursuit of finding out if you can duel a Stalker into a Mage. I won't know more till later on.

 

Just go with a multiclass Fighter/Thief. Both HLA's, good backstabbing with better THAC0. Improved Haste with Assassinate in one round, greater whirlwind in the next.

Multiclass characters become awesome in ToB.

 

Sorry. I just tried. I made a Human Stalker with 18/90 18 18 6 18 3 and there is no dual class option, check this screenshot.
Stalkers and Archers CAN'T dual class.
[EDIT:True Class and Beastmasters can dual class.
A Priest of Lathander can dual into Ranger.]

[ December 29, 2005, 20:51: Message edited by: Caradhras ]