POLL: Law or Not a Law?

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Specifically I'm talking traffic laws here, speed limits to be really precise. I think I'm like most people in that I drive in excess of the posted speed limit a lot of the time. However, I also know that excessive speeding will also likely get me a ticket, which is why I try to keep my speed around the speed limit. So it's a balancing act in some respects. Prior to last Thursday, I never heard of anyone getting a ticket for going less than 10 miles per hour (mph) over the speed limit.

As you probably surmised from the way I've introduced this topic, I was pulled over yesterday for going 9 mph in excess if the speed limit. Got a ticket for $80 and one point on my license. I'm going to court to contest the ticket, with the hopes of getting the point dropped, while still paying the fine.

I don't know if all countries use the point system like the U.S. does. Basically the point system effects two things: Your driving status in the eyes of the law, and your insurance. The effects differ somewhat from state to state, but where I live, if you accumulate 5 points, you can get your license suspended if you don't attend driving school, and if you get 10 points, you always get your license suspended. One point is deducted from your total every 6 months you go without receiving a ticket (although you can't go into negative numbers - zero is the minimum). The number of points you get for a ticket is based on the severity of the infraction. I was within 10 mph, so I only got one. 9 or less is 1, 10-14 is 2, 15-19 is 3, etc.

With insurance, the more points you have, the more you pay for insurance. Points can effect your insurance for up to 3 years, even if the points are gone long before 3 years have elapsed. That's why I'm more interested in getting the point taken off than reducing the fine.

So how does this relate to the poll you ask? Well, my thinking here is if most police officers are disinclined to pull you over for driving less than 10 mph over the speed limit, then why is the speed limit what it is? In my particular example, I was going 74 mph in a zone with a 65 mph speed limit. If no police officers will pull you over for going 70 mph for example, why not just set the speed limit at 70 mph, and then enforce that speed?

Now, I know that according to the letter of the law, I was driving too fast. But in my mind, I wasn't driving too fast, because I was under the assumption that since you don't get pulled over for driving at the speed at which I was driving, that my speed was within the bounds of the law. I would just like to see some consistency in how the law is enforced.

Your thoughts and opinions?

Poll Information
This poll contains 3 question(s). 17 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Law or Not a Law? (17 votes.)

In relation to the speed limit, how fast do you typically drive? (Choose 1)
* At or below the posted limit - 6% (1)
* Within 5 mph (8 kmph) - 18% (3)
* 6-10 mph (9-16 kmph) - 47% (8)
* 11-15 mph (17-25 kmph) - 6% (1)
* 16-20 mph (26-32 kmph) - 0% (0)
* More than 20 mph (33 kmph) - 6% (1)
* I don't drive (not old enough, use public transportation, etc.) - 18% (3)

How many tickets have you ever had on your record at once (typically 3 years)? (Choose 1)
* 0 - 65% (11)
* 1 - 18% (3)
* 2 - 6% (1)
* 3 - 0% (0)
* 4 - 0% (0)
* 5 - 0% (0)
* More than 5 (how do you still have a license?) - 12% (2)

How do you feel about the inconsistency in which speed limits are enforced? (Choose 1)
* Agree. If you never get pulled over for less than 5 mph, they may as well raise it and enforce that new limit. - 6% (1)
* Disagree. If you raise it, people will still abuse the limit the same way they do now. - 47% (8)
* Disagree. I believe the limit should be enforced at whatever the posted rate is. - 24% (4)
* Disagree. I think that police officers should have some discretion in whether or not to give a ticket for a certain speed, even if it leads to inconsistency. - 24% (4)

 

If the law in the US is the same as in Ireland, I think you may get double the amount of points if the court rules that you actually deserve the fine.

You answered that question yourself, Aldeth. If you increase the speed limit, those who drive over the speed limit would still drive over the new one.

The speed limit is, or should be, a way to ensure that cars are driven at a speed that would allow the driver to control them properly over that particular stretch of road. Some speed limits are also enforced to minimise noise when a busy road is located next to inhabited areas, like the road next to my housing estate in Dublin. The road is long, wide, and straight enough to drive comfortably at 45-50mph, but neighbours and the local council lobbied to have the speed limit reduced to 30mph because of the noise... and won.

In the end, they are a measurement to protect those who drive, and those who don't but are somehow affected by traffic (pedestrians, cyclists, people living nearby...).

The reason why many policemen don't bother stopping people may depend on how their radar is calibrated and your local regulations. Not all speedometers are the same, and the law must give some leeway beacuse of this. In Spain, the police cannot stop you if you are doing 5km/h (about 2.3mph) over the speed limit in their radar. Anything over that, however, and you're caught.


Excessive speeding may get you a ticket in the best scenario, but it may also cause an accident, and kill you and/or others. Those who don't respect speed limits (and do so knowingly) are commiting an offence, and deserve the fine and the points. I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly about this because my fiancee's best friend was killed by an idiot who was way over the speed limit driving through town. She was devastated for a whole year, and I don't even want to imagine how she would feel if that ever happened to me.

[ October 24, 2006, 15:54: Message edited by: Colthrun ]

 

I'm basically just throwing myself at the mercy of the courts. Sometimes, if you have a good driving record (and since this is my first ticket, I do), they'll give you probation instead of the points and fine. The probationary period is usually about one year. Then, if you don't get pulled over again during probation, you're OK. If you do get pulled over again, you get the fine and points from that violation, plus the one you were on probation for.

However, it isn't like it's automatic. If I were driving 90 mph and got pulled over, there's no way a judge would grant probation no matter what you're driving records was. Still, I view getting additional points as extremely unlikely. I know other people who have contested speeding tickets in the past, and the worst that ever happened to any of them was the exact same thing that would have happened if they never went to court in the first place. So I don't think there's anyway I'm coming out worse because of this.

You have my sympathies. However, I do not think I was driving like an idiot way over the speed limit. I can't speak for where you live, but around here it's not like you're driving faster than everyone else on the highway if you're 9 mph over the limit. In fact, you still get passed routinely by other drivers going even faster. In fact, I'd wager that's why you don't normally get stopped for 9 mph over. The police are looking for the fastest drivers, not you.

 

Well under the laws we have here you would have deserved your ticket and would not have the smallest of chances of contesting that in court. Around here if you go over the limit you're speeding and end of story. However people still do it because of the chance of them getting caught being low, but they have been made aware of the risks and have to bear the consequences of their speeding.

 

There is a point system here in the Netherlands, but only for beginning drivers. I think it only lasts for the first five years of your license. If you get three points on it, you're screwed. Points can be accumulated by driving more than 30 kmph over the limit or reckless behaviour.

I have a hard time keeping to the speed limit most of the time. I think cops should pull you over at their discretion if you break the limit. If the speed limit on a abandonned, three lane road says 80 kmph, and you drive 100 kmph, why should they give you a ticket? You're not endangering anyone, and if the road is suitable for such speeds, why not? But at most times, it isn't possible, and most cops have the common sense not to pull you over if you break the limit by a few kilometers per hour. That doesn't mean they should raise the speeding limit, because if they start doing that, they will never stop.

Sure, it causes inconsistencies and if a cop is a little bit stricter or just in a bad mood, he might slap a ticket on you, but hey, that's life; you know it isn't allowed to break the speed limit, and if you still do it, you should shut up and pay up.

 

I'd like to point out again that I already have admitted to knowingly driving too fast. And by going to court, it's not like I have any chance to be found not guilty. In fact, I'm going to enter a guilty plea and throw myself at the court's mercy. The best case scenario would be having the point removed and fine reduced. It's not like I'm going to say to the judge, "I shouldn't get this ticket because..." In fact, I should get the ticket as I was over the limit. I'm just hoping that by issuing a mea culpa I'll receive a lesser penalty.

 

@Aldeth: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that all those who drive over the speed limit act like idiots (although, reading your full forum name this is difficult to type with a straight face... ). Please don't think I was labelling you in any way.

 

Strong truth. [/Elhan's advisor]

Seriously, raising the speed limit just raises how fast people will go, the cops will still be looking for the flagrant violaters, and all it'll do is increase the number of accidents while allowing everyone to get where they're going faster. (Well, except for those who suffer an abrupt stop or are slowed down by the aftermath. ) OTOH, lowering the speed limit everywhere would just increase how much people drove over the speed limit. "We've driven this fast before with no accidents!" It's a no-win situation.

As it is, there's a de legiro(sp?) speed limit not being enforced, but a de facto speed limit 9 over being strictly enforced, and it seems to work out fine. And, of course, there are places where the posted speed limit is strictly enforced, which leads to more money available for those (generally) smaller towns when visitors don't know the area's unspoken rules. Speed traps can really boost a town hall's budget.

 

From my understanding, a big reason that they don't usually clock you if you're only a few clicks over is because you'll find often the speedometer in cars isn't completely accurate. According to the New Zealand AA (or was it the consumers institute...) you should give a 5 km/hr leave way. I know one of my parents cars, the speedo reads at about 8km/hr over the speed that it's actaully travelling at, but it can certainly work the other way as well.

Here most cameras are rarely set at anything less than the speedlimit plus 10km/hr. But I have heard of quite a few cases where people have been pulled up by cop cars for doing less than that.

 

And then you would have the same problem but merely at a different location. It's better to cut people some slack and let them live than, let's say, to fine them for going 1 mph over the limit. Remember the age of consent discussions? One day, one month, one mile. You're always going to have that, so being a little bit flexible about the exact limits isn't a bad thing and just making the limits wider but still enforcing them rigidly isn't a good solution. Also, there's more to the speed limit than just fining you for exceeding it. For example, it's important in car crash cases in courts. Or perhaps insurance, like when you crash your car on a tree and they want to know if you were driving within the traffic rules or not.

 

I don't drive, never learnt really, but I have a simple friend who does. When I say simple I actually mean, um, slightly retarded. He's all good and stuff, but not all there...anyway...

He was driving down a road near the central city, alongside a park where the speed limit is 50km p/h. A cop pulls him over and says to him "Do you realise you were speeding?", and my mate says "Oh nah, I didn't know", and so the cop says "So how fast do you think you were going?", and my mate said "I dunno...70?", and the cop said "You were going 72..." and my very slow friend said "Oh DAMN!"...poor guy thought he was only 2km over the speed limit...even though 50km is always the speed limit in urban areas. Fourtunately the cop realised my friend was a dumb arse and let him off with a warning...

 

No offense taken. I *am* an idiot, as my wife will readily tell you, but I don't drive like one. I was just trying to stress that while 74 mph is quite fast, approximately 120 kmph, I wasn't doing this on a city street. I was on a major highway with 4 lanes going in each direction, where people routinely travel at high speeds. I guess the thing that aggrevated me about the ticket the most was that there are tons of other people on the highway every day who go faster than I do, yet I was the one who got caught.

We don't have to deal with this in Maryland because there are no local, small town police forces. Rural areas have a county police force. In fact, AFAIK, the only city with it's own police force is Baltimore. But what you say is true. There are many small towns that only have a few people on the police force, and rely heavily on fines to help pay their salaries.

I remember there's this one area out in Utah (I think it's called Stockton) that's on the way to the military base. It's a tiny, tiny town - if you blink at the wrong time you'll miss it - which has a police force of one person. It's in the middle of the desert, but for no reason the highway that runs past the town has the speed limit drop from 70 mph down to 45 mph, and if the police officer is on duty, he sits right past the 45 mph sign waiting to pull you over. I never got a ticket from him, but I probably would have if I was not warned before hand about his presence.

 

Tough call really this one. However, I think anything in excess of 10% of the speed limit is fair game to be honest.

When you say 'less than 10mph' over the limit you might want to consider that 10mph is 33.33% of the speed limit in a 30 mile an hour area (Most Urban areas in the UK).

On a Motorway in the UK I would consider you unlucky to get pulled over for less than 85-90 in a 70mph zone (purely down to the danger in actually pulling someone over on a busy motorway). However, with speed cameras being all the rage these days, I don't feel quite so secure in the getting away with any speeding these days.

The system in the UK is points based with 3 points for basic speeding offences, going up depending on the excess speed. The points stay on your licence for 3 full years though before they drop off. At 12 points wave goodbye to your licence for 6 months (I think - never been there myself).

Personally I try to stick to speed limits pretty much everywhere except motorways. Motorways are built for speed, town roads of course are not.

As far as your dilema goes, I actually think you're wasting the court's time. No offence, but you did the 'crime', now you should take your punishment like a man It's not like you'll lose your licence over this, and it might just make you think better of it next time which is the intention of the points system I would have thought.

 

You have to remember that, while the speed limit is static, the situation is not. The speed limit is considered to be an 'safe average speed', meaning just about any vehicle can safely travel at that speed in normal weather, but that means a lot of vehicles can also travel faster safely. The police officers enforce are there not just to enforce the static speed, but also to make on-the-spot decisions about it. If you're in a small sedan with great brakes in clear weather, going 5 or even 10 MPH over, most officers will realize that you aren't really doing anything dangerous and let you go, maybe give you a warning as you get closer to high speeds. If you're in a Mac truck in pouring rain and you're going the same speed, you may get a ticket for reckless driving (depending on the state I think). In the end, though, you knew the risks when you decided to speed, and you should accept the consequences. So long as you are only throwing yourself on the mercy of the court, and not actually trying to fight the ticket, I have no problem, but I've seen people try to fight tickets like that because 'Everyone knows police don't pull you over unless its more than X mph.'

 

True, but as I said, this wasn't an urban street - it was a major highway with a 65 mph speed limit, meaning my 9 mph over was 13% in excess of the limit.

Well, I'm not wasting the court's time - it's a court specifically for traffic offenses. I'm using the court for the express purpose of what it was setup to do.

No, I'm not going to try anything like that. That excuse will never work. In fact, no excuse is going to work because the bottom line here is I was going 9 mph too fast. From what I know of other people who have appeared in court for things like this, you have a very good chance of getting a reduced fine or points. That's because a lot of the other people you see at the court are not the best members of society. People who get charged with drinking and driving, reckless endangerment with a motor vehicle, driving on a suspended license, etc. So when the judge sees someone who was 9 mph over the limit, he's like, "Well, that's really not so bad..."

 

Here's another question I'd like to throw out there - at what speed in excess of the limit do you think it is reasonable for a police officer to pull someone over. A lot of people say that most police won't do anything if you just a little over, but at what point do you think it's excessive enough that the officer should? And for consistency sake, lets say we're talking about a highway where there is a high speed limit - something around 60 mph or 100 kmph. I think there's a big difference between being 10 mph over the speed limit on a highway compared to a residential street.

 

I go 5 over just about everywhere. It gives me a nice cushion on the de facto 10 in case I'm scanning too much and my speed goes up. If I'm in a hurry I might go 10 over, but generally just the Beltline (65 in a 55 zone) and other roads that I'm intimately familiar with. Though when I'm angry (for whatever reason) I can get up to 15 or 20 over wherever I am, which is one reason I try to avoid going places that'll make me angry.