POLL: Roleplaying Demogorgon Poll

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As promised. Since I'm given limited space in what I can type for answers, I will give details of the 6 options you have here, and then give short descriptions for the actual choices.

Remember: Assume you are roleplaying. Also, three questions, one for good, one neutral, one evil. (Yes, I understand arguements can be made for how LG may react differently than CG, but I don't feel like doing 9 questions.) To make up for it, I'll allow up to two choices per question if you think there are two appropriate responses among the choices.

Here are the details of the 6 options you will have for each question.

1. Lie to Helmites and Seal the Keep - This option assumes that DG lets you leave the keep and you agree to send the Helmites down. After sending them down, you read the scroll, sealing the keep, and sentence them to eternal torment. This is doing exactly what Demogorgon wants you to do, which is another reason it can be argued that this isn't the "good" option - and strangely that never occured to me before.

2. Deceive Helmites, then Attempt to Save Them - This option also assumes you get Demogorgon to let you out if you send the Helmites down, and also assumes you lie to the Helmites and they go down to verify your story, but instead of leaving them to eternal torment, you attempt to defeat DG, despite your efforts proving ultimately futile in saving the false Helmites.

3. Tell Helmites the Truth, Betray Demogorogon, Forgive Helmites - This option again assumes that you get out with the help of DG, but you tell the Helmites the whole story of what has happened, and then forgive them, which I suppose is the only option that doesn't require something dying.

4. Tell Helmites the Truth, Betray Demogorgon, Kill Helmites Yourself - This option is identical to #3, except you don't forgive them, and kill them instead.

5. Kill Demogorgon, Tell Helmites, Forgive Them for their actions - This option assumes you don't take up DG's offer, and decide to fight him right from the start. Then you go back up and tell the Helmites what happened, and forgive them for what they did to you.

5. Kill Demogorogon, Tell Helmites, Kill Helmites - This option is identical to #5, except you don't forgive them and kill them all.

So options 2 and 6 involve everything getting killed, options 1 and 4 involve just the Helmites dying, option 5 is just killing DG, and option 3 nothing gets killed.

Poll Information
This poll contains 3 question(s). 29 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Roleplaying Demogorgon Poll (29 votes.)

If playing a good character, what choice(s) make the most roleplaying sense? (Choose 2)
* Imprison the Helmites by Sealing Them Inside the Keep - 7% (2)
* Deceive Helmites, then Attempt to Save Them - 21% (6)
* Tell Helmites the Truth, and Forgive Them - 52% (15)
* Tell Helmites the Truth, and Kill Them - 0% (0)
* Kill Demogorgon First, then Tell Helmites, Forgive Them - 45% (13)
* Kill Demogorgon First, then Tell Helmites, Kill Them - 7% (2)

If playing a neutral character, what choice(s) make the most roleplaying sense? (Choose 2)
* Imprison the Helmites by Sealing Them Inside the Keep - 55% (16)
* Deceive Helmites, then Attempt to Save Them - 17% (5)
* Tell Helmites the Truth, and Forgive Them - 7% (2)
* Tell Helmites the Truth, and Kill Them - 3% (1)
* Kill Demogorgon First, then Tell Helmites, Forgive Them - 14% (4)
* Kill Demogorgon First, then Tell Helmites, Kill Them - 17% (5)

If playing an evil character, what choice(s) make the most roleplaying sense? (Choose 2)
* Imprison the Helmites by Sealing Them Inside the Keep - 52% (15)
* Deceive Helmites, then Attempt to Save Them - 7% (2)
* Tell Helmites the Truth, and Forgive Them - 0% (0)
* Tell Helmites the Truth, and Kill Them - 21% (6)
* Kill Demogorgon First, then Tell Helmites, Forgive Them - 0% (0)
* Kill Demogorgon First, then Tell Helmites, Kill Them - 55% (16)

 

I didn't vote for any of the options that involve killing Demogorgon, because I'm not really certain what it is. If it's the actual demon prince that's imprisoned, then from a roleplaying perspective, there's simply no way any mortal could be capable of killing it. If Demogorgon is considered a deity in the FR setting and if the Imprisoned One is just one of Demogorgon's avatars, then I guess it's conceivable.

 

This is the way I see it.

Evil - Anything that involves killing the helmites, and nothing else. Options of trying to save them or forgiving them are not acceptable, because an evil character would never do either. Sealing Demogorgon in is also not really an option, because in itself (if you disregard the fact you're sealing the knights in there too) it is a very good action, as it's the only one that doesn't involve Demogorgon rampaging either on the Material Plane or in the Abyss. In fact I would add an extra option, which is to make a deal with Demmy, then lie to the helmites and just leave, never casting the sealing spell. It's the perfect CE act, since the knights are killed and Demmy is freed.

Neutral - Sealing the helmites and Demogorgon. It maintains a certain balance that would appeal to a TN character, and it's also the "just" thing to do (as in LN) since the helmites were supposed to seal themselves in with Demmy in the first place. I suppose options 3 and 5 could also pass off as Neutral, but I can't see it happening because the eventual end result (Demmy being freed) is quite evil.

Good - This one is tricky, and in fact I think there is no true "good" thing to do. Deceiving the helmites (even if you rush in afterwards), while not necessarily an evil act (see above) is definitely not someone good-oriented would do. And the "they were supposed to it anyway" argument doesn't work (it would only work for LN) - you're dealing with GOOD characters here, they're not supposed to send someone to their death, no matter what. Especially since the helmites are not really evil themselves. Killing Demmy is definitely not an option, and killing the helmites is more than definitely out of the question. This leaves one option, which is to betray Demmy, forgive the helmites, and leave. Not a good action, since Demmy will soon be free on the Material Plane (even worse than killing him and sending him back to the Abyss!). I was forced to pick this option, since there is no "none of the above", and the poll system forced me to pick an answer.

 

I'm not following you. He tells you the process of freeing himself would take "eons", and then expends the small quantity of power he's amassed sending you out of the Keep. As opposed to the century it'd take him to remanifest in the Abyss? This has exactly the same net result as sealing both he and the Helmites in together, as far as I'm aware.

 

Good - Either deceive them and then attempt to save them when you find out what will happen if you don't, or tell them the truth and let them leave.

A particularly zealous character might kill the Helmites after telling them the truth of the matter. Most "good" characters will lie to advance the greater good - particularly if it would mean sealing DG away and destroying the duplicitous Helmites. The bell in DG's chamber is ringing wildly when you get in there, too, and the PC could have read the inscription and what that means.

Neutral - Either seal them in, or try to save them - not for their sakes, but because Demogorgon cannot be allowed to run free. A priest of Helm would probably leave them to rot and seal them in.

Evil - Either gut the Helmites yourself after betraying Demogorgon, or seal them in for eternity.

 

I agree with Prine. I don't think by betraying DG and then fogiving the Helmites would mean DG would soon be free. I was under the impression that DG would take centuries, if not millenia to get out. Of course, yeah, he still gets out. And I suppose you can argue that it doesn't matter if it is today, 300 years or 3,000 years from now it's still not a good thing. He's getting out eventually.

 

Depends how far you're willing to extend the alignment system, I guess. Perhaps the only 'good' option would be killing Demogorgon, then hunting him across the Abyss and killing him a second time, thus eradicating him forever. But that's entirely absurd.

 

I disagree with this. Being evil is not about trying to inflict the worst possible harm wherever you go for its own sake, or striving for the "greater evil." It's about being selfish. Getting profit. A CE character might derive some sadistic pleasure from Demogorgon wreaking havoc, but there would still be the matter of self-preservation - DG would eventually come after the CE character also, and hence it wouldn't be in his best interest to set him loose.

As for sealing the keep right away at the sight of the Imprisoned One - an evil character will not mind doing a "good" deed, if there is profit to be had, and the Helmites *have* promised a reward. Sealing it afterwards once the Helmites are in is perfectly justifiable by self-preservation and having Demogorgon take revenge on the knights in your stead.

Going in to "rescue" the knights - well, Korgan for one says: "I wouldn't mind testing me mettle against a demon prince." It *could* be a pride thing to go whack the thing as an afterthought.

The options that makes the *most* sense to me for playing evil would be, however: 6)killing Demogorgon to get out (possibly after reading the scroll) and then killing the Helmites; and 1)Tricking the Helmites and sealing them in, chuckling merrily at the gruesome death they'll face.

For good (mainly NG and CG): 3) as the most "humane" thing to do - trick the demon, no human casualties; 2) There is actually a loophole in the dialogues that makes Odren and co. go investigate without you actually lying to them, but even lying to them can be justified by the character believing what Demogorgon told you about the knights (that they're evil). Then the ghost will talk sense into you, and you go and try to save them.

For neutral: 1) As in "the way it should be", balance, order, and all that, or "it's only fair" (this option works nicely for LG); 5) Refusing to rot in the keep forever, but it's really needless to kill the knights afterwards - they've learnt their lesson.

 

I agree. In fact, you could argue that self-preservation is not only a point to consider, but actually might be the foremost thing a CE character would consider. Reduced chance of personal gain, and increased chance of DG coming after them would result in a CE character's main concern would be to keep him sealed forever.

 

Why not? An example would be a cleric of an evil deity (Loviatar ) who enjoys bringing suffering to others, but at the same time is fanatical enough to readily sacrifice his life for the goddess.
An evil character with some sense of self-preservation might still reconsider sealing D:
- what guarantee does he have that the spell actually works? Trusting a Helmite spirit, who conveniently arrives only after the first plan failed?
Walking away doesn't ensure that D will hunt you down, helping Helm imprison him on the other hand does.

 

Pretty good point, actually. A plausible rationale for not sealing or killing Demogorgon wouldn't be 'inflicting the worst possible harm', but attempting to avoid his ire, regardless of the consequences it might have.

The example of the evil cleric is also true. In D&D it is possible to be fanatically evil. But outside of evil clergy and possible psychopaths, you probably wouldn't find many characters who'd perform evil acts for their own sake.

 

I think we're bringing in a bit too much meta-game knowlege here. The PC doesn't know that killing Demogorgon is a bad thing and probably never casted detect evil on the helmites. A good character, given what he knows, is perfectly justified in killing Demogorgon. All he knows about the "Helmites" is that they tried to seal him with in a prison with a Demon Prince for all eternity. (Or at least the rest of their lives. I'm not sure how that works) Given what the PC knows (and assuming he's never cast detect evil on them) a good PC is perfectly justified in killing the Helmites. The last time the PC took something they said at face value they, uh, tried to imprison him with a Demon Prince. I doubt most PC's would be in the mood for conversation.

 

Of course any character would be justified in being angry at the Helmites, but the *most* good thing to do is to forgive them regardless of their transgressions.

 

If a good person hasn't cast protection from evil, he could well be convinced that the Helmites are evil. I never have access to that spell since I won't waste the slot and never have a Paladin. Since turning the criminals (I'm pretty sure it's illegal to imprison a dude for all eternity in a pocket plane with a demon) in to the authorities isn't an option, from a certain point of view, letting them go could actually be evil since you don't know what they'll do with their freedom. Also, you can start a fight by just being really really nasty with them. You don't have to physically threaten them, if I remember correctly, for the Helmites to turn violent.

 

However if Demmy's been sealed in the Keep, he won't be coming after you anytime soon, not in your lifetime. If you accept the godhood in the end game, maybe then you will live to see it - *if* Demogorgon actually gets out at some point, but with you being a god it's not that big a deal anymore.

This is a valid point, I think. At least it warrants consideration. It is pretty clear at that point that the spirit is not really of the same bunch as the knights, who weren't quite doing Helm's will, but a dangerous and evil Bhaalspawn might not trust a LN deity, I guess.

 

That's not sure either - someone might try to break the seal and succeed, it's not like Helm's plan was well thought out

 

Cinque!

No flat lies, no deceiving the Helmites. Not killing them. Not going to kill them so Demogorgon would stay there. Can't know for sure if he will and they will be very surely dead. And you can't really sacrifice people like that. Demogorgon can die. Won't cry after him. He will live again, anyway, which is bad.