POLL: Short F/T or Berserker > Thief... which is more powerful?

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I'm trying to create the more powerful of these two characters.

Is it a short (Dwarf, Gnome, or Halfling) multiclassed Fighter/Thief, or a Human Berserker 13 > Thief?

I picked the short race because I love the saving throw bonuses, but the Human gets a lot of immunities while Raging, as well as grandmastery (although I am NOT using any GM patches).

I am planning this character for a 2 person party (the other character is a Sorcerer), and have ToB installed (so I plan on racing through the levels quickly).

TIA

[ December 06, 2006, 23:42: Message edited by: Klorox ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 25 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: Short F/T or Berserker > Theif... which is more powerful? (25 votes.)

Short F/T or Berserker > Theif... which is more powerful? (Choose 1)
* Multiclassed Fighter/Thief - 72% (18)
* Dualclassed Berserker 13>Thief - 28% (7)

 

Fighter/thief.

For me, fighter HLA's are more valuable than berserker advantages. And GM without the GM patch isn't much better than specialized. Plus the racial bonuses are nice.

 

Multiclass > dual class

If the character dual classes, it only gets access to the HLAs from the second class. If multiclass, it gets access to the HLAs from both classes (and seemingly more frequently).

 

I'd vote multi-class. However, I'd suggest a slightly different dual-class: barbarian-thief (via Tweaks) is a pretty fun build.

 

I like the Berserker better if only for reliability, the immunities are awesome and with a small party they will be very useful.

On the other hand XPs won't be hard to come by and you'll get HLAs rather quickly.

The choice is between a MC Fighter Thief and a higher level Thief with immunities. So it's between GWW and Assassination. If you're going to use this character as a backstabber go with the DC if you want to use it as a sort of tank (with UAI and some traps) the MC is much better (although that point could be argued, but the rage won't last forever).

Don't forget that items and spells can help boost the number of attacks of this character.

Grandmastery +++++ may not look that good (minor advantages) but you can get +++ instead whereas the MC is limited to ++.

 

You can solo the game with a sorcerer, so you can afford any choice for your second character.

 

The one place where GM is really useful is for a backstabber. Grand Mastery gets you +2 extra damage and +1 extra THACO relative to Specialization. That 10 extra points of damage when you have the x5 backstab multiplier. (Of course the THAC0 bonus is more than offset by the much higher fighter levels of the MC).

And the +2 to weapon speed makes a big difference for a backstab (whereas it hardly matters at all in any other situation). You really want weapon speed 0 for effective backstabbiness.

And assasination under improved haste is very cool. Even better than GW. That will also work better with the dual class.

That said I'd still take the MC. 2* in missiles is helpful, but ultimately GW and much better THAC0 make up for the lack of hit points and slightly inferior backstab.

EDIT: But I have to disagree with Carahadras. The dual class is the better tank. Even without the rage it still has a lot more hit points, and the point of a tank is to absorb enemy attacks, so the THAC0 is far less important than hit points. The MC does have much better saving throws, but the DC will be below 5 for saves very quickly, and I think that's adequate.

 

Interesting points despite some contradiction due to the EDIT... It would actually mean that the DC would be a better backstabber (I don't think this is really debatable) AND a better tank (that point depends on the way you play IMHO because a Dwarf with uber CON can be awesome even if it is multi).

All in all if you don't mind losing Fighter HLAs, the DC gets some nice perks. With the MC you will always be in between, either choosing fighter or thief HLAs. That's a tough choice. Ultimately some people don't like DC because of the "inactive class" thing, I don't like MC because of the slow levelling up.

I can't imagine Klorox actually hesitating between a Dwarf and a Human.

 

Multi-classes tend to win out over dual-classes with enough EXP and I think this is the case here as well. With only 2 characters, you'll be reaching HLA's in no time and multiple GWW's wins out over a couple of Rages for me.

 

For ToB: multiclass.

 

For BG&TotSC: multiclass.
For SoA: dualclass.

 

Trellheim: I think dual is more powerful in both BG1 and SoA. Especially BG1 -- *** in a weapon proficiency gives +3 to hit and +3 damage. A fighter dualled to thief is a great fighter and thief both (dual Shar Teel sometime).

It's the availability of both HLA's that make the multiclass more powerful in ToB.

 

You're right, if you don't export your character. My point was that when you import a BG character into BG2, it's better multi. Sure, in BG it's nice/powerful etc. but a lvl.2-4 fighter in SoA is just a joke.

 

If you are not using Grandmastery patches, then it doesn't make THAT big a difference if you have 2 pips or 5 in your weapon style of preference.

Having said that, multiclassed fighter/thieves get HLAs like Whirlwind Attack, Critical Strike etc which are way too cool to pass up.

I say go multi-class. You can always make up for Berserker immunities using equipment and/or buffs from the Sorcerer.

 

Or you can give into temptation and SK a kit into the multiclass.

 

It didn't take long, I went with the Dwarf F/T.

I don't cheat.

 

I think you're a little confused over the definition of cheating. Its not part of the 'rules' that you can't have a kit in a multiclass, thats simply a limitation of the game engine.

...i suppose mods that add anything not included in the core game is cheating aswell?

 

I think it was me who first championed halfling paladins on these boards.
I can hardly blame anyone for correcting a regrettable shortcoming in the way the game was conceived

A halfling barbarian-thief, kensai-thief or swashbuckler-fighter, stalker-druid, not to mention a dwarven barbarian-cleric, all are IMO great characters to play. They certainly do spice up the game after the x-th time through, and the kensai-thief, despite THACO bonus and backstabbing is somewhat difficult to play in the beginning. That he becomes so über-powerful in the end is just the reward for previous suffering. With the bonuses, you also inherit the limitations of the kit in the multiclass character as well, and progress slower. I limited myself to small weapons for halflings - the largest it got have been shortswords.

To answer the initial question: If you go to play into ToB a multi-classed character is always stronger than dual-classed one. And you are correct about the saving throw bonuses of the shorties. They are worth it. In ToB, eventually, my halfling cavalier was practically resistant to the dreaded mindflayer attacks.