POLL: What is the Punisher's alignment? (D&D)

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I just saw this topic on the WOTC boards and wondered what you guys thought.

The Punisher is a Marvel character that goes around shooting, stabbing, throttling, mutilating, and eviscerating various criminals in major American cities. He takes great pleasure in doing so and occasionally makes his victims suffer more than they need to "just for variety" or "to see how interesting their screams sound".

Paraphrased from one issue:

*The Punisher sees a thug threatening a woman.*

Punisher: So this is Christmas. Sure feels like it.

*Punisher strangles thug to death slowly and painfully.*

Punisher: Not often I get one ten steps outside my door.

*Punisher dumps corpse in rubbish pile.*

However, he does not kill cops or other superheroes, though he is not opposed to maiming or crippling them if they get in his way. He does not betray his allies, contacts, and friends and goes out of his way, even to the point of risking his life, to protect them.

So what is it, folks? Lawful Good? Chaotic Evil? Or somewhere in between?

Lastly, I don't know if this is the correct forum to place this topic.

Poll Information
This poll contains 1 question(s). 37 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

Poll Results: What is the Punisher's alignment? (D&D) (37 votes.)

What is the Punisher's alignment? (D&D) (Choose 1)
* Lawful Good - 3% (1)
* Neutral Good - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Good - 41% (15)
* Lawful Neutral - 11% (4)
* True Neutral - 5% (2)
* Chaotic Neutral - 14% (5)
* Lawful Evil - 16% (6)
* Neutral Evil - 3% (1)
* Chaotic Evil - 5% (2)

 

Well, let's see:

He's definitely not Lawful, he breaks laws all the time. IMO, this makes him Chaotic.

He's also not Evil, nor is he Good. He does good deeds, but at a significant price. He does some evil stuff too (like killing tons of people all the damn time).

Chaotic Neutral.

 

I have never been a big fan of the Punisher, and I quit reading comics over a decade ago so things may have changed, but I would have to say that the Punisher always appeared to fall into chaotic good to me.

He not only broke the law constantly, he to me he always appeared to have nothing but contempt for the law and those who enforced it.

I would say that he fell into the catagory of good as his motivations were always to protect the helpless by eliminating the criminals who preyed upon them. He never really seemed to be hunting in order to gain personnal pleasure but instead out of a sense of duty to prevent the violent fate that befell his family from happening to others as well as to punish the guilty for the harm that they had inflicted upon others.

 

Chaotic good, since he does the things his way and often judges things only by his "own, inner compass."

Already like 'im.

 

What about the obvious sadistic pleasure he derives from killing his victims?

He favors torture and unusual methods of execution, simply for his own enjoyment.

 

He shows no regard for the value of life, and he doesn't care about the rules (not necessariy law in legal terms).

Therefore, he is Chaotic Evil.

 

I'd call him an undecided true neutral.

-He isn't really good since he kills for pleasure.
-He isn't really evil since he goes out of the way, to the point of risking his life to protect others.
-He isn't lawful since he's a brutal vigilante who blatantly disregards the laws of society.
-He isn't chaotic since he's very methodical. I think

What would you say? Maybe leaning towards chaotic.

 

He does show regard for life, just not for evil life. I'd say, with his own moral struggle over justice and revenge, he falls into chaotic neutral. He's way too tormented to be good.

Oh, man, definitely chaotic. He will blow past(if he doesn't break their knees) any authority figure between him and revenge, no two ways about it.

 

Does he now? He certainly didn't back in the 80s and early 90s. Sure he would waltz into a gang's headquarters and fire a few thousand rounds of ammo into the poor thugs or beat a criminal to death but he always dispatched his opponents as quickly and efficiently as possible.

He did use torture in order to obtain information but he was certainly never portrayed as enjoying doing so. In fact, I don't think I can remember the Punisher ever really showing any signs of emotions at all. He was generally portrayed as a ruthless terminator-like killing machine.

Still, it would not surprise me to find that they have decided to spice things up by making the Punisher more sadistic in which case I can certainly see the shift in alignment to chaotic neutral as being appropriate.

 

I don't really agree with this argument. The Punisher believes that the world is best served by the killing of "evil people" who prey upon the innocent. Thus, by his logic the cops and heroes (whom he considers to be foolish and naive in their approach to handling "evil people")are interfering with the greater good and the world is best served by his doing whatever needs to be done in order to continue his crusade. He is probably the ultimate ends justifies the means kind of guy but that sort of attitude is reflected under the lawful-chaotic scale.

 

I voted for Chaotic Good, but now that I created a character in BG and I saw the Neutral Good description, I'm sure he's Neutral Good. And here is what it sais in the description:
"A baron who violates the orders of his king to destroy something he sees as evil is an example of a Neutral Good character"

 

I didn't vote but why not Lawful ________. 'Lawful' does not mean that you follow the law as it is set down by the government or society, it means that you adhere to a consistent code or law. That law could be made by governments, it could be made by an order (monks) or it could be a personal code. For example, a lawful evil monk may commit murder even though the government says this is unlawful when his order's code says the monk should commit murder.

Not knowing too much about the Punisher, a vigilante might well fit the Lawful Neutral alignment for example where he has a code (kill criminals etc) and he follows it no matter the consequences.

Just a thought.

 

Lawful Good, I think he's very much like Paladins in all the D&D games I've played.

 

In D&D terms I could see him being a Paladin but in RL he is definatly CN or CG I have every comic he appeared in until I quit collecting

 

I see him as Chatoic Good. Don't judge him too harshly because he fights Spiderman and Daredevil. Spidey and DD have fought amongst themselves, but neither is evil ... then again which hero hasn't fought other heroes? Its one of the hallmark traits of comic books! (*clears throat and grimaces remembering when Captain America fought the Hulk and deflected punches that would have leveled buildings with his shield ... sure the shield wouldn't break .. but the arm???? ... ugh*)

I used to read the Punisher back in Jr High & High School and he did show leanings towards good. At times he got caught up in the blood and vengeance, but not without a few sleepless nights. At times he has seasons where he shows less remorse, but then normally swings back and tries to straighten out and be the man he wants to be.

On this topic, anyone see the info on this summer's Punisher movie? John Travolta as a bad guy, some unknown as Frank Castle (aka The Punisher) ... I've got it on my "must-rent" list.

The Punisher Movie

 

In the Graphic Novel: "Welcome back, Frank.", the Punisher holds a young criminal [who looks barely older than a teenager] upside down in a piranha tank while the fish strip the flesh from his bones. After that, he leaves the skeletal corpse for the criminal's comrades to find.

Priceless.

And then he burns a helpless old woman alive at the end of the book. Granted, she was a mafia matriarch but the sheer malice in the act was simply delightful.

I still say he's Lawful in alignment, seeing how methodical he is in planning his next massacre and the fact that although he is willing to beat the crap out of cops, he never kills them, saying time and time again that there are some rules he never breaks and some lines he will never cross.

Not adhering to society's laws does not make one chaotic. Frank Castle, aka Punisher adheres strictly to his own code. Plus, he's one scheming, sneaky bastard.

Garth Ennis, the latest writer of the Punisher Comics, is simply brilliant.

Never have I seen the blood spurt so magnificently in a Marvel Comic. After reading his work, all the other heroes like Spiderman, Daredevil, and Wolverine are wimps in comparison.

 

I'm going to change my stance and say he's Neutral Evil.

D&D alignment is basically black, grey, and white. There are different intensities of those three shades, but essentially it's the same. Either you are evil or you aren't.

If we place him in the D&D world, he's evil, since evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. The Punisher may be saving people in the process, but from what Shura's first post says, it sounds like he's killing people for the heck of it. That equates to evil. Evil evil evil.

With respect to law and chaos, it still sounds like the Punisher is neutral, since I'm guessing he would break the rules if he had to (truly lawful people just wouldn't be breaking the rules, period). Then again, if he's the kind of guy who makes a plan and sticks to it even when something unexpected shows up, then he's Lawful.

 

Yes, Oaz does have a point there.

Here's a conversation from "Welcome back, Frank."

Joan: Why do you kill them? Bad people, I mean.

Punisher: Because I hate them.

Joan: Oh. I thought it was because you wanted to make the world safe for good people.

Tells us a lot about the Punisher's alignment.

 

I view him as chaotic-good. He kills evil people, plain and simple and enjoys doing so, thus placing him at the opposite end of the alignment scale. A paladin operates in exactly the same way - he kills evil and enjoys killing evil. However a paladin will not torture his evil captives, he will have them tried for their crimes and let the law deal with them. The Punisher tortures an evil person possibly for 3 reasons: his own pleasure of seeing evil suffer, to extract information, to 'punish' this person for their crimes. However if he was in a country that agreed with torture of criminals and all Punisher related vigilantie action could one argue that the Punisher was Lawful Good?

In regard to how he treats police and the law of the land it's fairly simple he's chaotic-good. The law is basically lawful-good or neutral-good or lawful-neutral, however favouring the good alignments. The Punisher realises that the law enforcers of the country are a different means to the same end (removal of evil-doers). However he dislikes their codes that they follow and thus they warrent his disrespect along with his respect for their goals. So he will harm them, never kill them, if they stand in his way.

And frankly I like the guy.