Pope

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My CNN news alert tells me that Pope John Paul II is being given his last rites.

I open this thread for any relevant comments on this Pope and/or the implications for the Catholic church (and the world) of a new Pope.

What will the implications be? Will there be any at all?

 

Whether or not I agree with Pope John Paul II I admire him. I believe he has a great deal of integrity and faith.
The death of a pope with the election of a new pope of course has imense implications for the Roman Catholic Church. He influences millions of people throughout the world. Which of course can affect directly or indirectly the world as a whole.

I am sad at the news of his grave illness.

 

Not that I care much, bt his death and the election of another pope could mean some changes, but unlike Nakia I don't think there would be too much changes. But then again, it all depends on WHO is elected as the new pope. Would anyone happen to knoe who would be on the contenders list?

 

Contenders??? As in the papabilli? Among those mentioned are definitely Ratzinger, though he's too old to be considered a viable choice (77), Christoph Schoenborn (60), a very likely candidate, as well as candidates from Asia and Africa are mentioned.

Besides, the news about the rites are sensationalistic allegations. To those that do not understand the essence of the Sacrament, they are either meaningless, or the person is in very poor state. It is very common to anoint in every serious illness, so the report is true, but definitely not to the point, and alleges untruth out of it.

 

Valls says the Pope didn't get the Last Rites this time. His state is grave but his organism has started to react positively to antibiotics. They say there's no need to take him to Gemelli, so he's staying in the Apostolic Palace. The light has been off for some time, so it's assumed he's gone to sleep. He has low blood tension and high temperature, probably caused by a urinary tract infection. This may be related to being nourished through the tube - he's lost 19 kilos since February, from what I've been able to gather, so they needed this kind of nourishing as well. The fact he's staying home means he doesn't need a surgical intervention.

The Last Rites aren't absolutely last and you can receive them any number of times and John Paul has taken it twice already. A more proper name is the annointment of the sick and it's given with the hope the patient will get better, not precisely for death.

Pray for him if you believe, please.

 

@Kelvon, If you read my post carefully I did not use the word 'changes'. I used the word 'influence' which is in no way the same thing.

I will leave to Chev the discussion of RC doctrine and I am in no way being sarcastic. He simply knows more about it than I do.

However the Pope does have a great deal of influence and not just with Roman Catholics. The personality of the Pope is important as well as his ethics, knowledge and faith.

 

Call me an ignorant heathen, but can someone please SUMMARISE for me what the Pope actually does and why no other religious sects seem have a figurehead who is always in the news?

 

Actually, I think the Pope does mostly nothing but come out the window once a few days in Sait Patrick's Square. And that's about it. Oh, and always in the news, that to.

 

@HB: Will you please use a different tone? You're referring to a one thousand million plus group of people as a sect, to the leader of the Catholic Church as a figurehead, and you assume that all he ever does is either appearing in news or something that will get him in the news.
The subject is sensitive, and requires at least some empathy with the believers, as there is at least a bit of theological explaining and quite a bit of understanding of people's beliefs. If you have none, you will assume it [the Church] is a giant brainwashing machine, and any bit of supernatural or intangible will be enough to deem it [the Faith] completely pointless.
To actually come to the point where you could understand the role within the Church, and source of authority, you'd need to go through the basics of the religion.

Trust me, there is quite a bit to learn, and I admit I have gaps in my knowledge, so I couldn't understand much.

And, pray tell, of what use would that information be to you? Leave it be. You've lived without the knowledge all your life, I'm sure you'll survive the rest of it.

---------

However, just for the record:
The Head of the Church, his bridesmaid, is Christ. The Pope is the visible head of His [Catholic=Universal] Church here on Earth, and oncomer after St. Peter. As such, he is the ultimate authority in and of the Chrisitan Faith*. This position of authority grants him the position as the voice of all Catholics, and this is, by no means, a small group.
So much for a summary as concise as possible.

*) Given that the vast majority of Christians are of Catholic denomination, it is not wrong to say that Catholics indeed constitute Christianity, and most other Christians will have many similarities to the Catholic Church. In fact, most of the splinter groups and denominations will have more in common with the Catholic Church than with each other.

 

I can't say I'm a devout Christian (I identify myself as nominally belonging to the Uniting Church and adhering to principles of the faith rather than doctrine), but I do admire the Pope for his conviction and his commitment. While I do not always agree with the views of the Catholic Church, the Pope has been a visible symbol of all it represents and has never taken what he would consider the "low road" or compromised. Given that he was leader of the Church during some pretty turbulent times, I am impressed by what he has done to help perceptions of the church as well as support the faith.

If this is his time, I hope he goes quietly and painlessly. If it isn't, then I hope he recovers. A person who fulfils their duties in these conditions is one to be admired and respected, no matter their beliefs.

 

Toughluck - please don't read any offence into my "tone". I did preface it with a warning that I was ignorant heathen.

Firstly, I called it a sect because I thought he was only the boss of only one portion of only one of the world's religions.

Secondly, I called him a "figurehead" because all I ever see of him is waving and going on tours, a bit like the Queen of England, who I would also see as a "figurehead".

Thirdly, I didn't say his only role was to appear in the news, I said that he was always in the news, which is a big difference.

Fourthly, I don't appreciate your assumption that I think the Church is big brainwashing machine. At no point on these Boards have I EVER said that.

Lastly, I choose not to "let it be" because this is something that is going to be front page news and I'd like to be informed about it.

Thanks for your concise summary but I'm still not sure I understand what that means he is supposed to DO. I know that he is main authority of the Catholic church but I'm not sure what roles and responsibilities that position encompasses.

 

Well I'm sure Chev is going give you an in depth rant about the pope's possition but in meanwhile I can give you a small summary about the popes. Chev and others may correct me if I say anything wrong.

The pope is practically the dictator of the catholic church, allthough this probably is a definition the catholics won't accept. He elects the caridnals and basically is the one who chooses what kind of "doctrine" the church is going to follow during his life. I do not know his day to day activities but I'd assume them not to be much different from that of a political leader.

Being practically the ruler of the largest branch of the christian religion the pope has quite a lot of influence even political. The political influence has been used in various way throughout the histroy and it is still there even though it ain't so obvious anymore.

Why is he then in the news so much? Well the papacy has a nearly 2000 year old history, something most other religous leaderships do not have. Also the catholic church is the biggest branch of christianty and others do not have any similar leading figures so it tends to be a big thing if something happens to him. I do not think I need to remind you that the catholic church is a bit bigger than your basic sects.

Well that's about it. I'm sure Chev will come and shoot down a lot of the things I just said, but that's basically the papacy the way I see it.

Well I don't think he is such a big deal for most of us non-catholics. There is a reason why the church was reformed and the position of the pope was the biggest of those reasons. I can hardly speak for all protestants but I would assume most of us agree that the pope has no divine right for his power, and lacking that he really can't function for me as a ethical compass. I see him just as a priest who has become a politican. I respect him little more than my average priest or politican. Especially since I do not agree to many of the things he says.

edit: toughluck seemingly beat me to it. Oh well at least I gave you a protestant summary of the papal position then.

[ April 01, 2005, 02:29: Message edited by: Morgoroth ]

 

@HB: no problem, I understand.

What the Pope does?
1. He speaks on behalf of the Catholic Church, either in person or through one of her organs.
2. He explains the doctrines of faith (as above—either in person or through any entity).
3. He addresses the faithful concerning various issues, in various forms.
4. He is, by definition, a priest of the Church, so he performs the usual duties and rites.
5. He is responsible, as charged by Christ in the Gospel, for furthering the faith, and of course he is the central figure of the Church, so in a way, his actions embody the principles of the Faith and serve as a reference. When asked about the perfect Christian, who lives his life according to the words of the Gospel, you should be able to point at the Pope and say that it is he. That is quite the responsibility.
6. I could go into depths of sharing the troubles as well as joys of people in particular communities, and also care about the rights of man as viewed by Christian faith, but I guess that this you know already (at least from the news).

Difficult to say much more, I hope that shed at least some light…

 

Thanks toughluck and Morgoroth. I think Morgoroth has answered my question about why he is the only such religious personaility in the news, namely that the other groups specifically chose to NOT have a visible central authority as part of their operating structure (something to do with the schism or reformation?).

 

@HB

Well yes the corruption of the papacy and the catholic church were the main reasons why the reformation was necessary. Of course such corruption and abusing of papal power hardly exists anymore but I see the papal station as something unnesessary and even slightly dangerous because of its political power.

I'm not sure how active you are with the church but I would assume that you were born protestant, so you probably know that the protestant churches do have archbishops and bishops as national figureheads. Since these figureheads have no influence in foreign countries and can only affect their own countries or cities. The catholic church has is clearly centralized to the vatican and its doctrines are decided there whereas the protestant doctrines are decided on national level, meaning that the protestant churches in various nation can have quite a few differences even if they carry the same name.

One should remember though that the catholic church is far from united still. South American catholics often do not hold the pope in such high regard as the Europeans. Probably mostly because all the popes so far have been Europeans and with the exception of two (including the current one) they have all been Italians.

 

Even though I am not Catholic. I have to admire this man. His stance on communism alone and going back into Poland when it was still under that influence will make his legacy one that will make him one of the most remembered Popes. I wish him well.

 

Hypothetical:

Pope has a heart attack and suffers brain damage. Brain turns to liquid. Put on a feeding tube. Able to live 20 years but can't speak, react, etc.

Who takes care of the Pope's duties for 20 years? Could they excuse him from being Pope and elect someone else?

 

His condition worsened today morning, but he still said the Mass at 6 am (GMT or GMT+1). The spokesman now confirms that the Pope did receive the Last Rites yesterday evening. Professor Buzzonetti, two reanimation specialists and two nurses are watching over him and he refuses to go to hospital. Antibiotics were said to work but I don't think one can be sure. They were saying various things yesterday.

@Laches:

Would have to look up those special laws. When there is danger, sometimes Popes file conditional resignations. Pius XII ordered himself to be considered to have resigned should he fall into the hands of the Nazi, for example.