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This has always been a topic that interested me, even before I started playing PnP. As a DM, most people seem very worried about game balance and whatnot. This seems logical, but at what point does concern over game balance lead to displeasure over lack of powers/rewards for playing all those long hours. Naturally, it is the DM's job to keep everyone on the same page. Doing so, he naturally has to real in what he percieves might throw the game out of wack. However, it also seems that there are tons of very high level monsters and scenarios that might challenge even the most powerful of parties(depending on the number of characters in them of course). Basically, I want your thoughts on balance in a campaign, and what you consider too powerfull for a fun campaign. How far should DM's go when taking things out of the game: items, spells, powers, levels, classes, whatever. Now feel free; talk amongst yourselves

(Mind you I am stating to preference or opinion here, at least not yet anyway, so don't direct any hateful posts at me )

 

If you think that some of the players have gained a item that is way to powerful, or a spell that don't fit in the campaign or something, or anything at all. The first thing you do is that you talk to the player it may concern, tell him that: "If he uses the item, spell or whatever. The game become unbalanced, it will ruin the campaign. The only way to maintain balance is to destroy the item or just get rid of it. If this concerns a item it can be a quest in it self ( carry that cool new ring you found to that volcano in the heart of darkness ) If its a spell do the same or just give him a new spell as compensation. Classes, Powers ans Level is a bit worse. If they only have one lvl in that class it should be no problem telling him that this class is unbalanced or that it don't fit in at all. If you are concerned that they are gaining lvl way to fast do as we do in our campaign reduce the xp with alot. example: the last three sessions we had we should have got aroung 15000 xp each, we reduced it to around 7 or 8000. Because we all felt that we gained a new lvl almost every session.
Anyway its up to the DM, if the player becomes a munchkin with a holy avenger and full plate +5 regenreration spell immunty, just send a munchkin NPC on his ass or just kill him. It's all up tp you.

First of all talk to the players, tell them what you feel, that this don't work with those item, that spell, that class and those powers. If the are true roleplayers they will understand and make the changes.

[This message has been edited by Kerric (edited July 26, 2001).]

 

Ah yes do try to maintain the balence. I some of the charictors in the groop are getting to powerfull work with them. If the groop is geting to powerfull for the campain up th killing power of the campin. and if all else fails put then in combat with a like number of dragons and start over just dont do somthing so cheesey as to have a 20th level charictor trip fall and kill himself on his own +5 keen flaming burst sword.

 

I think the key is to let things out slowly. The DM knows how much XP is in every adventure before the players start playing. Don't let the players get to much XP to fast. This makes a lot of sense because it also limited the enemies the PC will be fighting. Don't put the party up against monsters you don't think they can beat. Don't create a situation were you have to 'save' the party from a encounter they are going to lose. That is cheese.

Give out items that slightly increase PC power. Avoid items that are extremely powerful and minimize the need for PC ability. By this I mean item should helps characters win not win for them. Give out items that are interesting and have unique if not super powers. The ring that changes you into a frog once a day will not overpower the campaign but may add interest to it.

The more careful you are about handing out stuff the less clean up you will have to do after the fact. And taking things back is always harder to pull off.

 

The DM, as the creator of the adventure, has the ultimate control over what is allowed in the game. If an item or power will throw off the game ballance, the DM cna choose to not allow it. If it is an item that the party may find during the game, the DM should not have put it there if it will ruin the game. The same goes for abilities. Many of the rules, if contained in supplements, are optional. The DM does not have to allow them. This would include Prestige Classes and extra skills/feats contained in things like "Tome and Blood" or any other class supplement book.

 

As a Dm who's currently working with a player who wants his paladin to fall from grace and become an anti paladin i know about having to balance characters/ items, etc. Not entirely happy with the black night prestige class i've looked at anti paladin NPC articles in the Dragon archives, and am merging them together for the player. As it is, his 'goal' for the character has presented a lot of potential storylines for me and in gratitude i'm letting him fall to the dark path. However he also accepts that the character shouldn't become too powerful or endager the campaign in any way and is happy to suggest limitations as well, and if i rule something out he has the good grace to accept the DM's decision. This, in my opinion is the best way to use the power of the DM, constructivly with the players.
But never too lax to give 'em a whack when they get silly and start dreaming up ideas to have a pulse rifle

 

Players actualy VALUE items they have to work for much more than things they just find lying around or the +1 sword they get for killing a rat.

Troubles can occour when you have a co-dm who favours Monty Haul. Then you sometimes have to get sneaky to rebalance the game.

 

Just out of curiosity, have any of the DMs out there run into situations where you've been fair, or even generous (without the 'Monty Haul syndrome") to the characters and they're unsatisfied anyway?

Let me explain, after an extensive dungeon crawl, a group of first and second level characters find the big treasure, which consists of plenty of gold, trinkets, etc. and a magic +1 sword. Now only one character can walk away with that one, and they're pissed because not everyone walks away with a +1 goodie. So the group starts tearing each other apart for the damn thing... (I've seen it a few times, usually with a jackassed thief trying to pickpocket the goodie away from the fighter who grabbed it, followed by stab from one side or the other, then the party separates into sides and all hell breaks loose.)

In any case how do you guys deal with it? I usually tried to introduce an enemy into the equation so they'd sort of focus on surviving for the time being at least, or if I got fed up enough I just closed the books and watched them butcher each other...

 

Players so greedy that they will kill each other for the magic item, rather than giving it to the character best suited to it, deserve to die. I have had this happen only once. I let them fight it out, then when the fighting was over I sent in an encounter which would have been difficult for the group when healthy. In their weakened state, they were no match for the fresh monsters.

 

Why don't some of you guys come over to NWN forum and DM a little. I plan on buying the phb and DMhb as soon as I get my new debit card, but until then I can't DM because I don't know the rules well enough. So go over and start up some new campaigns, we need the practice.

 

ArtEChoke, In most of the groups I've played with I haven't had that problem. I see it only a few times. I can only suggest two things. Try to keep the treasure balanced, and let the PCs forge their own fate.

By keeping the treasure balanced I mean don't always favor one class or character type. Don't just have magic weapons and armor. Give out different magic items that can be used by different PCs. I don't think your treasure was wrong or anything. I think you have followed this rule. If the players still fight over things instead of working it out in a peaceful way, auction, trades, etc. and want to fight over it then let them. If they die then you are rid of those characters.

 

Yeah Voltric, there was some other stuff in there, amongst them (if I recall) a ring of protection +1, but the sword caused the big meltdown. The sad thing is, in general it was being over-generous to group of mostly 2nd level characters (though it was quite a dungeon and I had a thing for ghouls at the time, which are rough on low level characters). Ah well, the 2 that didn't participate in the fight made it out alive, one of which left with the sword, heh.

 

No matter how unrealistic this is, the treasure squable can be solved by creating items that can only be used by one player in the group. The +1 sword might be too big for anyone but the groups ogre figther to use.
The helmet was blessed by the blind god Luvia and can only be used by his servants.
The robe can only be worn by magic-users etc.
Be sure to create original items.
Noone want's a boring sword +1.
It's a better idea to let them find the infamous sword sword of bashing +1 used by the great warlord sir Korak.

 

I beg to differ, they really did want a "boring +1 sword" They wanted so bad they started killing each other over it.

 

I think both you guys have a point but a usual the best point to be is the middle ground. Don't force the players into using certain items. I'd suggest giving out items that you think maybe more useful by one or more party members, but let them make the final choice. They are going to be go stupid as to not work something out where - for example the theif gets the boots of silence not the mage - then you don't need to run a game for players that stupid for foulish. Disagreement is good stupidity is bad and should be punished.