Prejudices, Racism, etc.

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[This thread continues from the Vegan girl one here: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?p=644760#post644760 -Tal]

Heck, I don't trust teachers, because a few of them have been proven to be child molesters. After all, teachers like to hang around children. How could they be anything other than child molesters?

 

If many of your personal experiences with teachers had been negative in nature, Splunge, such feelings would be understandable, if not logical. I'm just going off my personal experiences with vegans and animal lovers, and I made it clear that I fully understand there are many non-obnoxious ones out there. But based on my experiences I'm not inclined to trust these sorts until they demonstrate normalcy. Call it what you will, that's the way I see it.

 

Actually, they would be neither. This is - literally - the exact same logic we use to claim that we shouldn't trust black people because they are criminals, or that we shouldn't trust police because they are corrupt, or that we shouldn't trust Muslims because they are terrorists, or that we shouldn't trust Arabs because they are Muslim, or that we shouldn't trust gay people because they molest children...

It's racism, but this time it's based on what people (don't) eat instead of the color of their skin.

 

I don't trust republicans.

 

I was too busy being snarky at joacqin in the PETA thread (), and forgot to respond to this. But no need to now - Drew gave a much better response than I would have come up with.

 

Wow! I've never been so stylishly accused of racism before! Those generalizations you made are fair, but they missed the central idea that I was asserting, which was one of personal experience with a group. Now if a person holding attribute "X" and I have an interaction, and that interaction is negative, then I have a personal baseline. If I meet several people with attribute "X" and have similarily negative experiences with them, I'm likely going to develop an opinion of people with said attribute. Now, that does not give me the right to go out, hunt down and kill people with attribute "X", or to persecute them, but it is not that unreasonable that I am not going to trust peopel I meet who have said attribute. I can try to be logical and fair, and I should at all times obey the law (ie: not deny them jobs if I hire for a business, not deny them housing if I am a landlord, etc) but inside that lack of trust is there and I don't think it's accurate to equate that with balls out racism.

 

I used to work for an ardent Louisiana racist, for the better part of a year, who frequently used the "N" word, often ranted about how blacks and Mexicans don't take care of their kids [which is why he says that over 90% of them are criminals], about the "black conspiracy" to control the government of Louisiana in order to keep the welfare checks coming (since 95%* of all the black people are living high on the hog on welfare and driving expensive cars while good working white people struggle to make it without government handouts), and how any time a white man is alone with more than one black man, they will beat him up and take his stuff, and he bases every one of his ridiculous claims on "personal experience".

Sure, you aren't this schmuck - not even close - but you do realize that prejudice is always based on personal experience, do you not?

* It's actually closer to 2 percent, and 80% of that 2% are children.

 

Well, that settles it. What the hell are all these black children doing driving expensive cars? Don't their parents set any boundaries?

 

With the attitudes the guy has I'm not surprised. As in I'm willing to bet a lot that this guy has had prejudice against minorities from who knows how long and it is more than likely that those prejudices have worked against him.

Such is the way of prejudice. Not very useful, unless you're going to war. Then it makes it easier to kill those who are not of your kind, less than human, the Enemy.

 

Now, there's one VERY big difference, imo, between racism and irrational bias and what LKD is talking about, and you all seem to have missed it. Here it is (emphasis mine):

For those who missed it (jk), it's the willingness to change his mind on individuals. He may start with the assumption that anyone with attribute X that he's likely to meet is Y, but if they then show themselves not to be, he is willing to change his mind on that individual. On top of that, since his opinion is based on personal experience and not 'what his pappy taught him', he's likely to change that initial opinion if he encounters a large number of people X who aren't Y.

 

NOG: I made it clear that I fully understand that there are non-criminal black people out there, but based on my experiences I'm not inclined to trust these sorts until they demonstrate that they are normal.

Doesn't work terribly well, does it?

 

And how much does it take for a person to prove themselves? If they prove themselves as honest, trustworthy, beyonf your prejudiced views, where do they get? The level of trust and honour that you regard people of your own kind as having?

I admit, I'm prejudiced against Chavs and generally distrust most people and recieve much the same in like.

I've had to have my boyfriend defending my honour after a group of *children* came up and demanded for me to hand over my walking stick. It's quite ornate and I only use it out on special occassions. Their parents were nearby, and were the sort I'd classify as a chav, neither they or their children went against any prejudice I had for them.

I am not proud of being prejudiced, but you get to the point where if you're not part of a group and you cannot understand the way they act you think negatively of them. If the particular group in question is one that goes out of their way to cause me trouble, that isn't going to change.

I have enough problems from most people to only really bear a grudge against those who perpetuate it anyway.

I also believe 'positive discrimination' it a load of and can be just as damaging as 'negative discrmiination' (even if it does benefit me a lot )

 

If I don't trust any group and take reasonable, legal steps to protect myself from them just to be on the safe side, that may not be fair, I'll admit, but it isn't going to bloody well change, political correctness be damned.

If I cross to the other side of the street when a member of a group I don't trust comes toward me, maybe that makes some people think I'm a bit of a jerk, but that's a FAR cry from discrimination or the racism most peope think of when they hear the word, because I did absolutely no harm to the person coming toward me.

By the same token, if someone identifies themselves as being from a group I have seen on newscasts that advocates positions I disagree with, yeah, I think differently of them than I do of those who share my opinions. That's not heinous all that different from everyone else.

 

You can be racist without being discriminatory. If you aren't willing to walk on the same side of the street with someone because he doesn't eat the same food as you do, you aren't being discriminatory, but you are still being prejudiced...and more than just a little ridiculous.

 

Actually, on the street thing I was thinking of the racial / cultural angle that has crept into this discussion, and the idea that some people could try to attack me.

As an example, while walking downtown I've frequently been accosted by people looking for money -- panhandlers if you will. I was not attacked or anything but the one fellow did grab my arm briefly and several have attempted to intimidate me. Now when I see people who look like him I cross over -- simple as that. I'm not taking risks no matter what people tell me I should do to be suitably non-judgemental and multicultural. I know for a fact that not all people who look like the fellow who grabbed me are criminals or panhandlers, but I'm going to follow my common sense when it comes to my own safety -- and that of my family should they be with me. Better safe than sorry as long as I stay within the law.

 

If I've been eating chilli, then I won't fault anyone for walking on the other side of the street from me--especially if they knew I was intot he Chilli!

 

Drew, define racism, prejudice, and discrimination for us. What is considered discrimination, prejudice, or racism and what is concidered justifiable?

Let me put it to you this way, Drew. If every black man you had ever seen, heard of, or read about was either in the criminal justice system or committing a violent crime, would it be racist to not trust black men?

 

To build on NOG's questions. Why has society decided that racism, prejudice, and discrimination are wrong. Isn't it just as wrong to force someone to be friends with, work with, live with, etc. someone that they don't like? When did the Mommie's take over and we must all be the best of friends. Shouldn't people be allowed to "hate" whoever they want? Violence is already a crime so as long as you aren't beating people up, shouldn't you be allowed to despise whomever you want? If someone wants to open a restaurant that only serves "White men" shouldn't they be allowed to? I'm guessing the enterprise would be a failure as they would be excluding so many people, but shouldn't it be the owner's decision?

For the record, I am channeling my "internal George Carlin" today and being cranky. I don't necessarily agree wth everything I have posted (especially the restuarant one), but I'm also not convinced that we can legislate everyone to get along.

 

We can't do that. Some groups have certain things they do that make them different from the rest of society. Other groups believe what they do to be morally wrong. The Law has to protect us both, but the law can't force us to get along.