Prisons in America and elsewhere.

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Since the Busted in the Buff thread has been derailed, I thought I'd open this one in response to Ragusa's question about why North American's make so many prison rape jokes.

My take on it is this -- if you go to a medium or maximum security facility, chances are that you will have an unwanted sexual encounter. The punishment is supposed to be confinement and removal from society. Yet the unofficial punishment meted out by other inmates is considered far, far worse, and so that is what we focus on, as it is what is truly striking about being in prison.

If we treated prisoners the way we should (23.5 hours / day in solitary, food being tofu, OJ, bread and vitamin supplements delivered by guards through a slot) there would be no possibility of rape or assault in prisons. But modern day bleeding hearts who believe that a rapist has the same the same worth as a 6 year old victim have campaigned for all sorts of rights and perqs for these filth. Then they wring their hands when it is found that these people prey on each other when all other victims have been made unavailable. And then they complain that "we can't keep the prisoners safe, so we shouldn't imprison them at all, we should let them run free and commit more crimes!"

Utterly stupid. Of course when you let these sorts wander in exercise yards, do crafts in workshops, and cook food and clean, they are gonna take those opportunities of lesser supervision to satisfy their lusts, be they sexual or psychological.

 

For ease of reading ...

I provide this for context.

 

"a slot" was not the appropriate term. The term you were looking for was suppositories.

 

I get the distinct feeling that you are not very fond of people who have been convicted of crimes LKD?

 

My problem here is quite simply that the jokes suggest an acceptance of the apparent situation that in in prison the relationship between prisoners is the law of the jungle, that that is a lawless area, and that criminals have it coming, because, after all, they broke the law. It sounds just as if the rape and abuse at the hands of other prisoners is accepted part of the punishment.

It isn't! It must not be. A state must no accept that if it takes its own laws and their claim to authority serious. It cannot put people in jail for breaking the laws and not enforcing them inside.

 

Ragusa, they enforce the laws better in prison than outside. Unless you keep every single prisoner separated, there will always be those who will find a way to harm others.

Personally I have little sympathy for most prisoners. I believe we should make a more concerted effort to help the victims of those prisoners instead of pandering to the prison populations to make the prisoners llives safer and more pleasant -- the criminals have chosen the law of the jungle. They can live with it.

 

In a sense -- I believe in harsh punishments meted out by the government. In general, I do not believe that such horrible crimes should occur behind bars by other inmates. If I were wrongfully convicted of a crime, I'd rather deal with the isolation of 23.5 hours in a cell than being the cell block humping post. We do inmates a great disservice by not having a system that protects them from each other.

That said, I do not believe that the punishments neted out by the legal system are severe enough, so there are days I cheer when some extra-legal justice is administered. But on principle, it's wrong. But I'd feel better if the official punishments better fit the crime.

 

Yeah? Like an 18 year old pot dealer who meets Bubba the 300 pounder in jail? Not all criminals are equally bad. In America you can go to jail easily, police is not always correct and jail terms can easily be very long. And then there are those who are innocent in jail. Tough luck for them to become the butt of a joke, so to say? They have 'chosen' the law of the jungle by accident.

Extra-legal justice is unacceptable for any legal system. The system, the law has to protect inmates from each other, be it only to protect the own claim for authority.

This isn't about empathy but principle.

 

There are a lot of unacceptable things that we cannot fix. In a world with limited resources, I want the resources put toward helping the innocent victims and punishing the offenders. All too often, the resources go to helping the offenders and litigating (read that: punishing) with the innocent victims.

In any event, as I said we have the capacity to cut costs in prisons drastically and help them avoid prisoner on prisoner assaults. But such lengthy individual incarcerations and such cuts to the menu fly in the face of modern touchy-feely beliefs that criminals should have above average food and lots of privileges. They eat like kings and have access to things that many innocent people can only dream of. It's a disgrace any way you cut it -- I'd rather eat boring, bland food and be bored out of my skull than take the alternative. But hand-wringing bleeding hearts can't have it both ways -- it is impossible under the current conditions to curtail the violence and gang activity.

 

Ragusa, I did say "most" -- but if you wish take the comment out of context and bend it in any way, feel free to do so (...as if I could stop you).

All the groups you list, combined, make for a very small portion of the inmates. So, yes, "most" still applies -- I have very little sympathy for what happens in prison to most of the inmates. Do I really care if violent criminals kill each other? Not in the least. Your 18 year old pot dealer was most likely selling to minors -- so, no, I really don't care if a drug dealer becomes someone's toy in prison.

The "principle" which should be really dealt with is making our streets safe and making our cities safe for our children. Personally I believe we need to revamp the legal system to include proceedings to determine if a person can be rehabilitated -- then either set them on the path for rehabilitation or punish them (harshly).

 

Rags - My jokes aren't about acceptance. How could you accept rape in prisons? But that is beside the point. They are jokes. Jokes come in all types, sizes and unwanted sexual endeavors. But they are jokes. Polish and Irish jokes are funny. So are jokes about bald men. I fall into all 3 categories. But I still find them funny. It's all about perception.

 

What if the same guy got busted for possession and wasn't dealing? It's not that common to serve jail time for possession but it may happen nevertheless.

Does that guy really deserve to get stabbed or raped? Is that justice? What are going to be the consequences for that guy's mental sanity when he'll be released?

 

You can also distort what I say if you want, I didn't say prisoners deserve everything that happens inside. I just don't care.

 

My question to you all is: what exactly do you expect them to do? Short of nearly constant solitary (what many consider to be cruel and unusual punishment already) there's no practical way to prevent such crimes from happening. That only leaves punishment for committing those crimes as a deterrant. What's good punishment in prison? You can't deny them food, you can't punish them physically, and a few days of solitary isn't a problem for most (it's the week or more that's illegal in many places, as I understand it. What else are you going to do? Add more years to their prison sentence? That may work if the offender is a drug dealer who's in for 3 months or something, but if he's a murderer or other serious offender he's already in there for decades.

What, then, do you suggest?

 

Monetary punishments and drugs that suppress below the waist action are always an option. Even if the drugs are paid for by the offender it's a double blow. They refuse the drugs? Take more money from them, pay compensation to the poor guys family or himself if he has nobody immediate. Or stick all the offenders of such a thing together, leave them to it between themselves

I remember hearing about the best prison in the country was shut down after an MP did a ceremonial visit to the place as it had earned such a 'good' reputation for never having repeat offenders. The MP thought that it was so terrible in there for a person to live (his words, not mine) that he had it shut down because he wouldn't want himself or his family ending up in such a place... well duh, that IS the point of such institutions. You don't want to be there? Then don't commit a bloody crime. Why should taxpayers have to pay for games rooms, cable television, radio stations, arcades, internet provision, excessive comfort for people supposed to be punished.

If it's the best they can do to offenders is put them in a comfortable situation then of course they will continue to offend within its walls and as soon as they take their steps out into wider society they will just pick up old habits. It's the do-gooders who would never end up in prison crying out "it isn't their fault, you should be nicer to them" that have made such a situation easily possible.

 

Yes and we all know that harsh punishments work so well in keeping our societies free from crime and evil nasty worthless human beings eh?

 

Punishment should be harsh depending on the severity of the crime. I'm not touting the flaying of any and all criminals. I'm saying that those who who have already faced the worst of the system grow fearless of it and all people can do is say "Sorry about that, we'll tell him not to do it again"

But the closing of a prison because it isn't a nice place to be? My grandad worked in their briefly. The place wasn't inhumane, people weren't beaten or verbally abused. There were rules, they were strict and they didn't get luxuries. They could borrow books and chat with each other and the guards fine and well. I doubt there is any one solution that would fit everybody - same as anything really.

Maybe there should be a division of psychoanalysis involved within court hearings to help determine appropriate punishments.

 

From what I've seen on TV most prisons are more about squalor than comfort. You're probably right that excessive comfort shouldn't be provided but being deprived of one's freedom and youth should be punishment enough without taking the last shreds of human dignity an inmate still possesses.

It's only fair to discriminate between violent psychopaths (murderers, rapists, child molesters), hardened criminals (those who make a living out of cutting corners) and misguided youths.

Prison should serve to rehabilitate people by allowing them to pay their debt to society not break them and make them lose their sanity.

Unfortunately some people can't be redeemed. I was appalled when it was revealed recently that a child molester who had been arrested many times got a doctor to write him prescriptions for viagra...

 

The money may work against some, but I'd bet the drugs would be considered cruel and unusual punishment. I swear, these days anything that makes the person feel uncomfortable or unhappy is 'cruel and unusual'!

This is a great idea! Too bad it doesn't happen. According to this site (which all but quotes the DSM) says:

APD being Antisocial Personality Disorder, which is more commonly called Sociopathy.

 

If the harsh punishment involves keeping those worthless human beings away from the general populace, then yes, it works wonders.

Dreamers can dream, but some people refuse to be rehabilitated. I'm all for second chances, but 5th, 6th, 7th chances? Some realism must be employed here.