proficiencies and weapon styles

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This disuses the point Earl Grey mentioned in the best class topic. He said:
"Putting five proficiency slots into one weapon skill is a waste!
Three slots is optimal for almost all weapons. You get no more THAC0 bonus or attacks per round with the 4th or 5th slot. In Baldur's Gate it was well worth it to get the 5th proficiency, but not so in BG2!
The point with using Celestial Fury and Crom Faeyr dual wielded with the dc Kensai/Mage is that Crom Faeyr gives you 25 strength. The extra attack from it is just a bonus and besides with that strength bonus even with no proficiency in War Hammer you'll hit now and then.
That said this proficiency distribution is ok for a dc Kensai-9/Mage-17:
Katana***
Dual wield***
War Hammer**
Quarterstaff**"

I can´t totally agree to you - this will wor fine for an all universal char. Nice if you want to go solo. Let´s have a look on Proficiencies and weapon styles:

* PROFICIENT gives you no penalties
** SPECIALISED gives you +1 to hit and +2 to damage and 1/2 extra attack
*** MASTERY gives you +2 to hit - otherwise saa
**** HIGH MASTERY gives you -1 on your weapons speed factor - otherwise saa
***** GRAND MASTERY gives you +3 on damage - otherwise saa

For example the improved speed factor is really advantageous when you fight this guy wielding the C`Fury in the temple district - if you don´t hit him first he´ll probably stun you and for he´s a kensai you´re pretty pissed then. Low speed factor is also useful when you play a high AC char like a fighter-thief and want to backstabb.
The additional damage on grandmastery is probably neglectable - you´re right here. But place it on a ranged weapon and things will change (there you won´t get any bonusses from style specialisation - there high dex is your big advantage: dex-19 improves THACO by 4) - the additional +1 on damage will summ up faster and really pay off. It does as well, when you use a small weapon like a dagger or a 1d6 weapon like a staff or short sword.

Combine it with the only two worthwile styles and you get additionally:

-SINGLE-WEAPON-STYLE gives you
* gives you -1 AC and 1 critical hit on 19
** increases AC to -2

-TWO-HANDED-WEAPON-STYLE gives you
* gives you +1 on damage and a -2 on weapons speed factor
** increses speed factor by -2 again and critical hit on 19

Playing offensive, the IMHO most effective weapon proficience style combinationss would be:
**** in your weapon of choice and * on single-weapon-style and ** on two-handed-weapon-style

However - I will still give my chars grandmastery if possible, as well as the second single weapon slot: It is a question of pride and status

A suggestion: Give a kensai-mage ***** on staffs, ** on two handed weapon style and the staff of Rhynn (initiative is 1) - from style & proficiency alone he´ll get -5 on initiative resulting in an total initiative of -4. For he´s a - lets say lvl-9 kensai he´ll get +3 on THACO and damage and further -2 bonus on speed factor compared to a normal fighter. He will always hit first and hard too

You can find the proficiency & style table I used here - it´s made by Darien: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/proficiencies.php



[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited April 11, 2001).]

 

thanks, good to know.

 

I agree with what You say, Ragusa.

Does weapon Speed go below 0? I wasn't sure it did, but I think You are right. If it does the bonus from High Mastery is worthwhile.
Grand Mastery, as You point out, is worth it for missile weapons due to their relatively low damage.

A few thoughts:

Single Weapon Style means not using the shield slot. IMO it's better to dual wield or use one of the fine shields.

2-H weapon style is truly excellent since you sacrifice nothing.

Kensai/Mage or Fighter/Mage can go with several good weapons. Q-Staff and Katana are the best ones in BG2, but Flail (Flail of the Ages), Long Sword (Daystar) and even War Hammer (Crom Faeyr) are good choices if you want to use the shield slot for something.


I personally still prefer Mastery (***) for my main weapon and use the proficiencies to get Specialized (**) in secondary weapons that may be useful in certain cases.

[This message has been edited by Earl Grey (edited April 10, 2001).]

 

I think that single weapon style is a very valuable fighting style especially for missile weapon users.

When beeing attacked when using a bow/ crossbow/ sling/ shortbow their attackers get IIRC +4 on all of their attacks. When they have to switch over to their melee weapon the additional -2 AC and the possibility for a critical hit at 19 can be a life insurance.

And I agree - shortswords, flails, maces and longswords are excellent weapons and there are some really nice ones around in BG-2 (at least one +4 of every kind).

The mere problem is to set your NPCs proficiencies to spread the +4 weapons equally in your party - no reason to store them on the main char - at best he can use two weapons at the same time.

 

I just can't picture any self-respecting Kensai wielding a staff though...

 

Why not - as a powergamer .....

 

I still like the idea of a kensai/mage, kensai/thief, wielding the c'fury and com fa'er in the offhand, plus the daystar in the extra slot for the spell it gives, poifect.

 

Very impressive summary! I agree that the Grand Master is more of a status thing, but still irresistable.

 

tnx Mathetais

that´s my 600.

and the max number of smileys for it

 

Reminds me of a friend of mine who put together a fighter/mage character who specialized in staff and had a high strength. Never told the party he was anything but a mage. They wondered why he seemed to hit so often when he got in melee ;->.

Anyway, Bo Staff is good oriental weapon, no reason a Kensai wouldn't want to master it.

 

What helps for missile weapons? Two-handed?

 

unfortunately not - there is no ranged weapon style. Th only thing that helps is highest dex possible - 19
Bad fate for a dwarf

 

About Single Weapon Style and missile users:

An alternative is to have a shield in the backpack and equip both your melee weapon and the shield once the enemy engages you in melee. (AFAIK the only thing you can't change while in combat is your armor.)

 

Well I guess I'm not the only member of the 600 club after all. Way to go Ragusa. Incidently, I like my Kensai/Mage to dual wield, with I believe 3 in dual wield and 4 in Katana, though I don't remember what else I had stars in.

 

Is it possibble to combine single weapon style with twohanded weapon style. Per deffinition, by using a twohanded weapon, you are using a single weapon, or is the single handed style limited to onehanders?

 

Single weapon style is for one-handed weapons only. I had also thought about that both styles would add up when using a bastard sword (should allow both styles) but IIRC single-weapon-style took effect

Either when putting just *ONE* weapon in your shield slot only, you should be fighting single weapon style but BG-2 is also dicriminating lefties

[This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited April 11, 2001).]

 

Another idea: How about a pure halfling fighter with dex-19 and grandmastery in slings?

(a) He could wear full plate mail; (b) he could put ** in weapon & shield style; (c) the rest of his prof slots in an acceptable melee weapon (short- or longsword....).

He should get along quite well, when I think about sling of Everard, cutthroat, guardian or fortress shield and some good platemails....

 

Heh, my dwarf had dex 18 - I imported him form Bg1 and I'd used the manual of dexterity to get him up Still got booted about like a football though

 

I had my kensai/thief dualling CF (grand mastery) and Belm (2*s in scimitar) just to get that extra attack per round with CF that Belm gives. I put two into scimitars 'cause I figured as long as I'm using it, it might as well do something for me...
Dualing CF and Crom is good, but you really only use Crom for very little of the game, making it the most over-rated weapon in the game for me. Do you really need that +5 advantage when you're thaco is below 0 anyways? And if you're relying on that +5 to do the damage to Kanx or Jon, you may have bigger problems than weapon proficiency...

Ragusa, did you really put 4*s into a dagger??

 

I *did* even put ***** (for the extra damage) into daggers and it worked fine for me - the initiative for backstabbing was enjoyably low and the difference in damage between boneblade 1d4+4 (5-9) and C`Fury 1d10+3 (4-13 damage) isn´t that great.
It is by far more influenced by strength boni and especially multi-damage when backstabbing.

more here: http://www.sorcerers.net/ubb/Forum2/HTML/001673.html

I agree that Crom is probably overrated though useful - but at the time you have it you could just as well hurt anything with the +4/ +5 weapons available for the gros of the party.