Reasons for 9/11.

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This link

http://www.zmag.org/pilgercalam.htm

has some interesting points to make. Not that the author condones terrorism, nor do I. Perhaps the media has something to do with it all?

Pilger is an Australian journalist working mostly for UK media. He is fairly well unheard of in Australia, as his article would evidence.

 

Indeed.

I've havn't got much to say about that because it felt like I wrote it. Everything in that peice is fact, although some may think that the US is the world's savior, I think they brought terrorism on their selves by intervening in international affairs they had no bussiness in... therefore creating resentment when the 'flavor of the week' is over and the US move to other atrcocites.

I, like any rational person, am against terrorism... either by fundementalists or world powers. I've heard said that massive terrorism (like the kind committed by the US) actually lowers the amount of violence... but what does it do in the long run? Creates more resentment and bitterness towards western civilization. Perhaps world powers supporting terrorism with rebel forces in already war-torn countries isn't such a good idea.

 

Well i can't see anything in there that i don't agree with. Didn't know about the North Korea thing, interestingly explains the recent troubles for me.
It is just dissapointing that too many people are brainwashed to believe the lies they are fed by the media. Oh well.
We can't all be perfect can we?

 

I too fully agree with everything stated in this article.

And I hope more and more people in the media get the "cojones" and civil courage to tell how things are. If not, I see a dark future. Really dark future with nasty conflicts. Decisions made on wrong presumptions are doomed to be a desaster.

 

I read the article. I also made a point of getting to the hosting website and checking it out. Checked out the author's bio. Checked out his other articles.

Like the most recent article of his, "we see to much", who says the war in Iraq is due to the US and Britain being racists who are appropriately compared to Nazis. He goes on to say that some of the reporters in Iraq have been intentionally killed by the US and Britain to keep the "truth" from getting out.

Read his other articles as well (he has articles and commentaries there) and you see a pretty consistent viewpoint -- and not a one of them can be mistaken for a neutral report.

That shouldn't be surprising though really. Every writer on the site has a similar agenda. Now, simply because you start from a virulent anti-US standpoint where you hate the US and write an article it doesn't mean there isn't some truth there. I think it fair to say though that it should be taken with, not a grain of salt, but a whole lotta salt. You have to do a lot of sifting to find the nuggets in the "article" and, frankly, I think the sentiment of many on the board is such that they won't bother they'll just swallow anything anti-US hook, line, and sinker.

 

Laches

Tell me your truth, I tell you mine

And yes, the source is questionable. But I don’t care, because, imho, actually the stated facts are true. Because I also got them from sources which I absolutely trust (NZZ, Tages-Anzeiger, Le temps, DRS, BBC). So I don’t question the truth of the facts that are stated there. (And yes, I take everything with a whole lotta salt that comes from the Bush-Administration or Fox-News)

Well, don’t get me wrong, I think you (and Darkwolf) are very bright and well educated. But the arguments your using here, Laches, are pretty cheap. You searched for a way (and found it) to dismiss it as simple Anti-American bashing. And elegantly avoided to think about the implications this facts have for the relationship between the US and the outside world and the US itself.

Well, as long Americans clap themselves on the shoulders and tell themselves “I am OK, You are OK and the rest of the world is inferior and envies us” it won’t change things and makes problems not go away. They can go on and tell themselves fairy-tales, but it won’t change fiction to fact.

Now, don’t get me wrong, but what comes next will be pretty harsh, but it’s necessary to make my point clear. Make no mistake, I couldn’t care less for the US-Government, the wrong decisions (meaning it's war in Iraq, it's plans to "reshape the Middle-East", it's plans to make a "protectorat" in Iraq, which will lead to a big bloodshed and an high economical price) it makes and the US-Citizens that have to suffer from it. But it also impacts citizens (especally someone I know) from my country, who live and work in New-York and in the rest of the USA. So forgive me, but I have some harsh feelings.

[ April 06, 2003, 20:54: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

Did you deliberately create those positions just to get under the skin of others or do you really believe that because I pointed out that the article is from a biased source I think "the rest of the world is inferior to us and envies us."

Quite frankly, the question I have is: where the hell did that come from? I've been posting here for over a year and a half. I challenge you to search high and low for anywhere where I stated that opinion.

I also think that you completely misunderstand and misrepresent the prevalent though process in the US when you say America claps itself on the back and states the rest of the world is inferior. If that was true, and if the US was disinterested in understanding the motivations behind the terrorist attacks, then it would be peculiar for so much of our media attention to be focused on these very issues. The type of media I am speaking about are the latenight news programs etc which have addressed this precise topic. These type of shows are about ratings and create programs the public is interested in.

To have a fair and impartial discussion though you have to start from a fair and impartial beginning. When the foundation however is someone who has already invoked Godwin's law by comparing the US and British to Nazis who intentionally kill members of the media you do not start from a fair and impartial place.

I am also disappointed that anyone who I converse with on a regular basis "couldn't care less for... the US citizens that have to suffer." For the record, I was against action in Iraq but now that it is underway think that the regime change should be completed. That said, I am personally saddened, and I don't know a single American personally who isn't, for the loss of life for the Iraqi citizens who suffer the real consequences of war. I had hoped everyone here could feel similarly even if they were only US citizens who are paying the price.

In short, I was attempting to point out that the article was highly suspect but did contain what I considered to be kernels of truth. You seemed to stretch this to: American's pat themselves on the back and think of the rest of the world as inferior.

I think that is a strawman to make the Wizard of Oz proud.

 

I do somewhat agree with the article above as it brings up valid points, but like any other article I prefer to sift carefully when I read.

Another possible reason put forward for the specific timing of 9/11 could be explained by the walkout of the US and Israel at the World conference against Racism. This took place only one week before the attacks. Check the link out.

http://www.news24.com/News24/RacismConfrence/0,6119,2-1173_1075253,00.html

 

I kinda doubt that the timing had anything to do with the walking out on that conference - took more than a week to plan didn't it?

 

At Laches

I am sorry that I offended you.

1. To the part of 9/11. Yes, i intended to overexaggerate this part for the sake of rhetoric. Just to show where my anger and my frustration stems from. This anger is mainly directed against the US-Goverment and it's actions, external and internal, in the name of "national security". As I pointed out, I am emotionally involved myself. So I don't critize the US-Goverment just because I feel so, but because I am certain, that its actions and decisions impact me and my surroundings and the people I care for.

And the "suffer" part actually meant, that what the US-Goverment is doing now, will hurt US-Citizens in the future. So I'm gonna correct that, so it's clearer.

Again, if this offended you, Laches, I am sorry.

2. The second part is truly a generalization. But it's the impression that I get, when I watch CNN. Especally when I watch the Larry King show, and people shrug "complaints" from oversea off, by telling how nice and caring americans truly are and that the people in other countries just don't understand, what the US is doing. I think this is the way how the majority of americans deal with the momentary situation.

I just think that's just the pattern in which you fell, Laches. And I don't even think it's your fault. You're faced with a lot of anger and angry people (like me) and "foul language". And americans have, imo, developped a way to avoid to search for the reasons of that anger, by just shrugging it off as "anti-americanism".

In the post by Khazraj, you will find many things that made people angry about the US. I don't say that you're responsible for this things or somehow involved. Nor do I say you approve those things. And I don't want to force you to believe those things. (and I need another word than "things")

3. And I don't bash only the USA. (Ok, in this forum). I also am aware of misdeeds of my goverment. Actually there's just an inquiry going on in my country, concerning dealings with the South-African Apartheitsregime. Dealings which I don't approve, which have a racist background and were committed by politicans of my country whom I despise. And luckily forced one of them to resign. So I can understand if South-Africans have some harsh feelings against my country.

Again Laches, it wasn't my intention to offend you. I'm sorry.

4. PS. And there is also the former swiss ambassador in Berlin, who really drives me nuts. He should never have been appointed, because his a irresponsible egoman and his foolishness had to stir up big trouble. His wife, who lives in Berlin, a former beauty-queen of Texas and personal acquaintance of George Bush the younger himself, is suing in Texas against German Newspapers. Living in Berlin, suing in Texas German newspapers. Now, when relations between Germany and the US never have been so bad. That has nothing to with anything and is total of topic, except that it will be the reason of more anger and tensions in the future.

[ April 06, 2003, 21:49: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

It does take a while to plan, I agree, but timing is just a matter of choosing a day.

I'm not saying I buy into it, but at this point in time there are many theories to what the "final straw" was on the side of the terrorists and during the last months before 9/11 there were plenty of events that could fit the profile.

I like to explore all the different possible catalysts.

Btw, I don't condone murdering a few thousand people but logically speaking there must have been some incredible driving force that made them want to do it.

 

It seems to me like every nation is spewing out alot of lies about the other nations because they want them to look bad and evil in the eyes of their people. I think everyone might see things differently if they new the whole truth...

 

Laches. This is not personal. Do a little role reversal as in "step into other people's shoes".

You say "Now, simply because you start from a virulent anti-US standpoint where you hate the US and write an article it doesn't mean there isn't some truth there. I think it fair to say though that it should be taken with, not a grain of salt, but a whole lotta salt. You have to do a lot of sifting to find the nuggets in the "article" and, frankly, I think the sentiment of many on the board is such that they won't bother they'll just swallow anything anti-US hook, line, and sinker."

I say "Now, simply because you start from a virulent pro-US standpoint where you hate the non-US and write an article it doesn't mean there isn't some truth there. I think it fair to say though that it should be taken with, not a grain of salt, but a whole lotta salt. You have to do a lot of sifting to find the nuggets in the "article" and, frankly, I think the sentiment of many on the board is such that they won't bother they'll just swallow anything pro-US hook, line, and sinker."

This is my point. If I don't agree with you, it's not necessarily because I have swallowed the bait. I could argue the same for you. Just because someone has a different viewpoint than me, doesn't mean they are somehow less. We always have to look at "unofficial" viewpoints. I try to look at issues from the "how does it affect the common man on the ground" viewpoint. Perhaps I am wrong...(most likely I am)...

 

(1)There is a difference between making an honest attempt to find a fair and neutral news source and finding someone who did an honest job of at least attempting neutral reporting and

(2)either attempting to find someone who has a non-neutral position or not giving a damn and finding someone who accuses the person you personally wanted to attack all along as Nazi murderers.

One seems... more honest than the other.

EDIT - there are plenty of other sources with this type of information, that the one chosen is also the guy who compares to Nazis etc seems.... Why wasn't the attempt made to find a more netural source? Imagine there was a gun control debate about the cause of shootings like Columbine and I went and got a "research article" by Charlton Heston and presented it as factually demonstrating the cause of Columbine. Now, under those circumstances would someone be correct in pointing out that he is the pres. of the NRA and predisposed to write that it wasn't the fault of guns? I'd say, hell yes they'd be in the right, and that is precisely what I did here. The only difference is everyone knows the Heston bias and here noone would know this guys bias without going and checking it out making the use of this article being used even more suspect as not even a caveat accompanied it.

[ April 10, 2003, 13:53: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

I am confused as to how you can get a neutral news position?

Some people believe that evil things happened in Iraq during Gulf War 1 and 2 based on evidence.

Others believe that such events did not occur based on evidence.

How can there be a position other than that?

BTW I did not find the word Nazi in the article that I linked to above.

Are you immune to bias? Everyone has their own biases and views. If you don't like them...

Pilger can hardly be called "biased" against the US, he is "biased" against a lot of things that are that are equally against the US, such as the Taliban and Osama bin Laden.

The purpose of the article I linked to and my posting, is that there is a bigger picture. The evils and horrors of 9/11 are not an isolated event.

[ April 12, 2003, 09:03: Message edited by: Khazraj ]