Roleplaying Demogorgon - Still Unconvinced

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I will first admit that I started a very similar topic a long time ago, but given the turnover rate on BoM, most of the regular posters were not members at the time, so I must bring it up again. If you are interested in what some in the past have said you can view the old Role Playing Demogorgon thread here.

Anyway, here's my problem - the correct decision to make if you're good. You basically have two options. You can 1.) Seal the keep after the false Helmites go down there, leaving them to suffer at the hands of the demon for all eternity; or 2.) Fight Demogorgon in an attempt to save the false Helmites which destroys Demogorgon's physical form, banishing him to the abyss, but allows for the possiblity of his eventual return to the Prime Material Plane. Not exactly two stellar options for the good minded.

1. This point certainly must be given some merit. I mean, just because you're good doesn't mean you wouldn't feel justified taking this path. You can say, "They lied to me, they tricked me, and ultimately betrayed me. They were trying to place me in the exact position they are now finding themselves in, so **** 'em. Give me the scroll." However, there's another part of me that says, "That's not very nice."

2. On the other hand, while it is honorable to try to save the false Helmites despite their treacherous ways, even if everything goes as planned, you still are going to release the Prince of Demons from the Prime Material Plane where he is effectively trapped permanently, to the Abyss, where he could theoretically make his way back to the Prime Material Plane. Heck, if you chose mortality, and he makes it back to the PMP in your life-time, that could be very bad news for you. Even if it isn't in your life-time, you may have misgivings considering your actions now may have severe consequences on future generations.

Now, the false Helmites end up dying no matter what, but you don't know that at the time you are making the decision. You know for certain that you are sentencing them to enternal torment by sealing the keep, but the possibility exists of you saving them if you decide to enter.

I don't know what the "good" alignment choice is here. The neutral and evil choice definitely seems more tilted towards the **** 'em attitude, but with good it's not as clear cut.

 

I've killed demogorgon as I was told and then told the Helmits they're really ^%^$%#$. I think that was the best I could decide to do.

 

I suppose the truly good option would be to tell the Helmites the entire story so that they do not go into the keep in the first place thus leaving Demogorgon trapped and the Helmites alive.

At the point you describe though I would say that you are at a good of the few vs good of the many decision and it would thus depend more on the individual character than on the alignment. If your good character is a big picture type then the Helmites are not as important as the safety of everyone else. If you are a small picture type character than the immediate threat to the Helmites would be more important than the potential threat of Demogorgon being free in the Abyss.

Of course you could argue that killing Demogorgon would be the "good" choice if you don't trust the prison spell to hold Demogorgan. Thus you could argue that it is better that Demogorgon be banished to the Abyss instead of risking that the spell fails as soon as your character leaves thus resulting in Demogorgon being free to wander the Prime Material Plane without your character being there to stop him.

 

Seal the keep. It's what the Helmites should have done in the first place, and they're only paying for their duplicity. Not to mention that they should be suffering for eternity anyway if they had just done what they were supposed to in the first place. You're only making sure they do what they're supposed to.

I think that would work well for LG or NG, but CG might be another matter. The "I have to save them" might be stronger than the other, and you could go down there. Really, the uber-good option would be to seal the keep without sending them down there, but you have to send them down there to get the scroll to seal it.

But if you want to RP it to a T, I'd suggest going after them with the intent to save them from Demogorgon and flee, then trap him inside once you're all out (now that you've got the scroll). When you get there, it's too late for the Helmites and you're forced to flee without them, sealing the keep once you escape. The only problems with that approach is that you end up with the exact same results as just sealing it right away but waste the time of going in and coming back out, and then you might also get unneccessarily banged up by Demogorgon before you get out. You also have to wonder if he might manage the area transition, because then you'd be in deep ****, having let him out without even the handicap of destroying his physical form.

 

I prefer a different method. Kill Demogorgon in order to escape. Then go give the helmites a piece of your mind.......right before you kill them, too. They did just try to imprison your entire party with the Prince of Demons for all eternity (a fate likely worse than death). I don't even think Keldorn or Anomen would complain about, uh, evening the score a bit.

 

Same as above: first Demogorgon to get out and then the helmites for some whoop-ass. You could also think it this way: the demon will be gone from prime material, defeated by a mere "mortal", and thus would probably have some problems in the Abyss because of it. You get the loot and all others pay.

Roleplay-wise I seriously doubt anyone would want to have such an confrontation, though, so naturally majority of people would take the safe route out: let 'em suffer.

 

Someone else would know better than me, but isn't Demogorgon essentially a power in the 2nd edition?

No ragtag band should ever be able to defeat him, and it'd be insanity for anyone to force a confrontation, good or evil, lawful or chaotic. Nobody is that stupid. Unless you're playing a paragon of good who would sooner die for a futile gesture than commit a relatively minor evil act in the name of a greater good, then I'd seal the keep. You can feel guilty about it later.

 

I could see a good party take the first option, specifically a Lawful Good character, it brings about the most good, as it permanatly keeps the Demogorgon from harming the innocent. Sometimes the right action involves the sacrifice of others.

 

It seems to me that the most 'good' option is probably to perform the ritual whilst inside the vault, then agree to take revenge for Demogorgon if he gets you out of the keep, and then tell the Helmites the truth of what happened and allow them to leave with their lives. You're breaking a contract with Demogorgon, which is perhaps not a very bright idea, but whatever.

 

I agree with Prine that Demogorgon should be absolutely impossible for any party to beat.

 

Actually, Demogorgon is an avatar of a power. The avatar you face does not have access to the full gamut of Demogorgon's abilities, were you to face him on his home plane. Mortals who were nowhere near as powerful as the bhaalspawn have actually killed gods in Faerun.

 

If it's only an avatar, then why is it such a big deal that it's sealed away in the Keep? It'd only be a small fraction of his power, and I presume he could just create another one elsewhere, anyway.

 

I think there's also the consideration of survival. After all, what "good" is served by dying on a fool's errand to save the Helmites? That Demogorgon is referred to as simply "The Imprisoned One" for so long suggests that anyone would think he was immensely powerful. To have subverted the magics of a god - Helm, no less - and to walk through your mind without exertion suggests that DG is powerful beyond belief. That's not a case of the **** 'em attitude, because while it may be noble and heroic and all that, there is no sense in throwing your life away while the prophecy is speeding towards its conclusion.

A paladin or a similarly righteous and good (and wise) character would probably opt for saving the Helmites, as would many characters concerned with maintaining the balance of forces (for entirely different reasons). After all, Demogorgon has demonstrated that he can work around the bonds he is placed in, to a degree. He must not remain in a position to manifest on Faerun, whether now or down the road. The guardians of the keep are gone - so who would stop his re-emergence next time?

Bad guys? Heh, that's easy. **** those Helmites, and **** their eternal torment.

 

I don't know. If you do escape and confront the Helmites first. Warn them not to go in there then use the scroll given to you by the Avatar of Helm I can see this as good.

As far as I'm aware but I could be wrong. Gods can only put one avatar to use at a time. So keeping it imprisoned. You can trust helm to continue this as has been done in the past. Including with the false helmites. So it would not be you doing something that doesn't serve the greater good to reinforce it's imprisonment that others were meant to do. Though if your really nice as somebody said you might go in and try to save them first. But it seems a bigger slight to free him to remanifest rather than keep his avatar imprisoned.

Then Again if Helm decreed to read the scroll and trap them. Who wants to piss off a God Referenced as the "Ever Vigilant" amongst other things?

 

From Faiths and Avatars 2nd Edition, greater powers can manifest up to ten avatars at a time, intermediate powers five at a time, lesser powers two at a time, and demipowers one at a time. As far as I'm aware, under normal circumstances a deity can manifest and discorporate its avatar/s at will. If a deity's avatar is destroyed it takes time for them to 'build' a replacement.

In this case Demogorgon seems to be following the rule for planar entities, which is that they do not project avatars, but if they are slain anywhere outside their home plane then they will remanifest there after a certain period of time.

 

Imprisoning Helmites with the Demobaby seems to be sort of evil. Good aligned people will most likely forgive the helmites.

Killing the Demogorgon's pyschial form is an evil act? I don't think so. Sure he may come back, but then I am sure there will be new heroes&avatars to take care of it.

What I did, I told Demobaby that I agree with his temrs and went to Helmites and told them that I had slaughtered it. They descended down. An avatar chick came and gave me scroll, and told me about the Helmites. I went down and saw Helmited die at the hands of Demogorgon. I then fought 'Improved' Demogorgon myself, and killed it. then the headguy of the Helmites was alive, and told me that he was thankful and maybe now they were 'true' helmites.

What do you think about this solution? It is not evil, I guess as I couldN't leave Helmites to their fate; but I also tricked BOTH Demogorgon and Helmites, and I am very confused if I did the good thing or bad thing? (to tell you the truth I couldn't let IMPROVED Demogorgon be gone without a GOOD fight, if you catch my drift. ) Such complexity of this decision and different, morally questionable consequences are the things that make Watcher's Keep best dungeon built, and best quest ever written.

 

@ Silverstar - I'm not sure if it's good or not - that's the whole problem.

To tell the truth, I forgot about the third option, which basically is to lie to Demogorgon, and then fess up to the Helmites what happened. Of course, that's not exactly a good option either. It's definitely not lawful either. A paladin would have major reservations about taking this path, as it would require him to go back on his word. Even though it's a "deal with the devil" in the almost literal sense, he did give his word that he would bring the Helmites down. Also, it doesn't see quite right that the false Helmites really don't have anything negative happen to them, despite their treachery. I'm not saying they deserve to suffer for all eternity at the hands of the demon, but it seems like there should be some consequences for their duplicitous actions.

Finally Drew and Wirhe bring up yet a fourth option, one that I have never taken, because I didn't think it was possible. Kill Demogorgon when you first meet him, and then go whack the Helmites. It basically accomplishes the same thing as option 1, but it is you who are doing all the killing. Possibly a good, if chaotic option.

*sniff sniff* You smell that? It smells like a poll. However, I would like some clarification on Wirhe and Drew's option, as I've never taken it, and didn't even know it was a possibility. How do you kill Demogorgon right away? Obviously, you couldn't have used the scroll, as if you did, you'd be trapped in there forever, if you did kill Demogorgon. I was of the opinion (obviously wrongly) that you had to read the scroll, let Demogorgon release you, and then decide after the fact whether or not to kill Demogorgon. Also, what are the dialog options with the Helmites after that? i.e., if you kill him, then you can honestly say that you've defeated the creature when you go talk to the Helmites. Do they still go back down to see for themselves?

 

Lying to Demogorgon to save the Helmites has to be the least of all possible evils by several magnitudes in this situation. To err is human, to forgive divine... remember that Helm is a lawful neutral deity, not good; just because he isn't so willing to show mercy doesn't mean a good-aligned character shouldn't be. Show him up by absolving his servants for him.

 

Demogorgon can't spawn unlimited avatars. If you seal one away it is one less avatar he can use to terrorise the planes. This is why imprisoning him was preferrable to destroying him in the first place. He can't just discorporate his avatar in his prison, either, since he is cut off from the planes.

@Aldeth: if you keep insisting that he show himself, he will be hostile. Once you kill him you are released from the prison. Then you can go talk to the helmites.

 

Is their reaction any different than if you lie and say you killed him? I'm more curious than anything - I've never taken that option before, and I don't really feeling like playing an entire game just to get the chance, although whenever my next play through occurs, I'll take this option.