Soloed a barbarian

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Since I wanted to knoow if it'S possible to defeat the monster hordes in IWD2 without the ability to cast spells I soloed a barbarian.
My choice was half-orc since it'S the barbarian race and half-orcs get more strength which speeds up the game. I didn't regret my choice.
I also considered deep gnome, but less strength means a slower game, spell resistance is quite useless and 1-2 less character levels do make a difference.
Her starting stats were 20-18-18-1-16-1 and only strength was raised at level up, alignment was neutral good,
Evil alignment would have been a little easier because she could have used "massive halberd of hate" instead of a greataxe +4 for more in chapter 5 and be immune to blasphemy.

I was surprised how powerful barbarians are. The faster speed yields a tactical advantage, greater rage lets you hit harder and the 3 extra hitpoints/level can be a life saver.
Most useful is the damage reduction, when hit by a poisoned bolt later in the game you are immune both to the piercing and poison damage for example. 1-2 extra damage reduction is more useful than the weapon specialisation 4 fighter levels offer, the often recommended fighter4/barbarian x build is a bad idea.
Even when my character was low on hitpoints and got attacked by the underdark merchants she just enraged and killed all 4 without trouble.
It's surprising how many things can be detected while replaying, never having played an half-orc before I was surprised by the "romantic" breeding offer she got in Kuldahar.

She could bash all chests and doors even without enraging, so lockpick wasn't needed.

She didn't level squat or use items from bonus merchants. I tried to squeeze out as much XP as possible, maybe a few thousand extra dialogue XP were possible if I pumped up intimidate instead of lockpick, hide and move silently. Does anyone know which skill is checked for which value to get a reward from the wizards for plundering Orrick ?

For those curious about how much faster a solo character levels:

start of chapter 2: level 12, 74475 XP
start of chapter 3: level 19, 182435 XP
start of chapter 4: level 21, 210935 XP
start of chapter 5: level 23, 266010 XP
guardian slain: level 24, 285210 XP
end: level 27, 376360 XP

After chapter 2 she didn't get any combat XP except a few for killing Thoraskus.

It took her 117 days and 13 hours total, 71 days and 8 hours of them were forced rest after slaying the guardian.

Even without someone to buff her she didn't have trouble defeating the battle squares in chapter 2.

- The battlesquares rewards work the following way: After defeating a level you either get a gem of that rank and some gold, magical ammo or XP as if you defeated a monster 5 levels higher than the current rank. There's also a chance to get a scroll.
- The XP you get for destroying the drums at the goblin warrens is considered combat XP and not quest XP like I thought, I wanted to get more XP by destroying them later, but I got none. Since I got more than a little XP when destroying them earlier I suspect those drums grant more than half the combat XP in moncrate.2da file. Does anyone know more ?
- My favorite ranged weapons were sling loaded with the returning flame bullet +1 I found where the barrow wight's horn was in Fell Wood iirc, later I also used the 2 handed throwing axe +1, the extra slashing damage nearly always works even if the enemys are highly damage resistant.
- The abishai hide armor you can win at the battle square is really great because of the damage reduction, my barbarian used it until she found the chain of Drakkas.

- It's a very bad idea to kill Yquoq in chapter 1, when you meet him again in chapter 6 he can drop a Tymora's loop ring if you're lucky.
- An even easier way to enforce getting a Tymora's loop ring by reloading is the torture room in the war tower, just enter this room in stealth mode and reload when you're not pleased about what you found.
- I also did some reloading for the 4th floor of the cleric's tower, it's possible to get a Tymora's loop ring there, I tried to get the "massive greataxe of flame", but it didn't appear (is it even possible to find it in normal mode ?), only a greataxe +5 which does additional slashing damage.
- I didn't find any really useful helmet in the game, should have Oswald make a winter wolf hat instead of a cloak.


The game scales the enemies you meet according to the average party level, so she met more and harder monsters than a party would meet, in the Severed Hand she had to fight 3 demon constructs instead of one for example.

Noteworthy battles:
Sherenical: She's highly resistant to ranged damage and has an enormous damage output in melee with her greatsword. Had to lure away and kill her companions first in order to get an 1:1 battle. But my level 14 barbarian was still too weak. With Zak's help (stoneskin, improved invisibility and fire shield) and the flaming star +1 the first buffed melee attempt was successful.
Slimes&Jellys: really annoying since they only take damage by fire but not very difficult
The guardian: She defeated him in straight melee using the greataxe +4.
Monastery: The eight chambers were no problem and slaughtering the monks was even easier
Kuldahar: the undead died within seconds, the club of disruption felt like a machine gun
The holy avenger battle was done before the time loop. She killed the cleric and mage first, the archer did hardly any damage because of DR, but slowed down the character, so he was next. The meleers were no problem since she could easily outrun them.
The roof battle in chapter 6 seemed quite impossible on the first look, but after killing the humans fast she used the slowness of half-dragons and their inability to overcome the barbarian's damage reduction with ranged attacks to her advantage with hit and run tactics.
The final battle wasn't very hard, first the the summoner was killed. The twins are totally immune to ranged damage as long as their buffs are active, but afterwards they're vulnerable. After the twins retreated to the pool she killed the slow slayer knights and Isair with shoot and run tactics.

After the game I imported her into a new HoF game to face the monster goblins in Targos, they didn't last long.
HoF mode doesn't seem to add new monsters btw, you get the same number when playing starting normal mode with the same character,

 

The reason why I hate HoF.

Kudos to you kmonster for finishing the game with a non caster!

 

Well, there are 4 non-caster classes in the game. Rogue and Monk would not have a chance I think. Fighter, probably not either.

Has anyone tried soloing a Pally? With great Saves, the Holy Avenger and combat abilites on par of a fighter minus the specialization, I would think they would have a chance.

 

Paladins are practically fighter/clerics with a focus on combat, not spellcasting. They should have an easy time of it. Lower quest rewards though.

I would think a Monk wouldnt be that hard to solo it with, because they are so good defensively. High defenses and eventually spell resistance.

 

Monks won't get rewards as well.

I think Chevalier soloed a Wizard/Paladin.

 

I think every class can solo the game. The barbarian can even do without the "enter area, shoot, leave area" dirty trick. If you use this trick the only battles which might be impossible to win are the battles where you can't retreat, the battle on the roof of the severed hand being most likely the hardest unavoidable one.

I'm undecided if fighter or rogue is the hardest class to solo, rogues are more flexible since they have the "use magic device" skill and can use wands and scrolls if combat gets too hard, while fighters hit better and can take more damage which does make quite a difference.

Paladins are imho not easier to solo than barbarians, their spells aren't as useful as damage reduction. I don't see a big saving throw advantage for them since you'll have to dump a more useful stat if you want high charisma. Saving throws aren't important anyway, most enemies use brute force and you can prepare for the few spell heavy battles.

For a paladin who's going to take advantage of his charisma based special abilities I guess the best choice is soloing an aasimar with stats 18-14-18-3-12-15 and raising only strength at level up, but an halforc with dumped cha should have an easier time.

 

Maybe 4 fighter levels for a barbarian is indeed too costly, when considering the loss in DR. That's certainly true for a soloer. What about a single level fighter or cleric, for the heavy armour proficiency?

[63VESE.DLG] Vese Nejj Bluff SkillGT 9
I took those items from Orrick; I can take them back from you. Unless, of course, you compensate me for my efforts, Vese.

[63VESE.DLG] Vese Nejj Diplomacy SkillGT 9
I went to a lot of trouble to get those items for you. I feel that I should be compensated for my efforts, Vese.

[63VESE.DLG] Vese Nejj Intimidate SkillGT 9
Either you compensate me for my efforts, or I will take those items off your dead body, Vese.

So, you need 10+ in any conversation skill. Intimidate will do fine.

You didn't mention, but I'm wondering: Did you cast many spells from items? If so, which did you find most useful?

 

So it would have been worth putting 14 skillpoints into intimidate to have an extra feat at the end. There were enough points to spare.
I spent 2 points for being able to pickpocket, 12 for lockpicking (at least 10 of them were wasted since the locks soon became to hard to open without bashing, 1 skill rank is enough to check if doors are magically sealed) and the rest for stealth (increased the fun by reducing failed attempts).

Heavy armor profiency is quite useless for a solo barbarian with 18 dex.
In chapter 1 you even get better AC from the lighter armors, the light weight full plate made by oswald in chapter 2 doesn't grant better AC than studded leather +2 and the abishai hide armor which grants damage reduction is considered medium armor. Near the end the chain of Drakkas grants 7+6 AC in combination with the dex boosting slippers.
The only heavy armor which looked appealing was the "plate of the pit fiend" you can buy from the underdark merchants because of the sunfire, but even if you're proficient you loose the barbarian speed and get an enormous penalty to skill checks.
It's not worth spending a feat for heavy armor, taking a fighter level slows down the damage reduction gain and is even worse.

I usually try to avoid using items which are gone afterwards, I might need them later. So almost everything was still there after the final battle.

Before finding a weapon which does fire damage I used lamp oil to kill trolls, it's cheaper than buying the staff from Lord Ulbrec's wife.
The necklace of missiles was used to speed up the fights with slimes which are only hurt by fire.
A few healing potions were used during the game, but I think I could have done without.
Iron rations I found were eaten and priests were paid to cast cure light wounds or heal to keep the in-game time low. Zak buffed my character for the Sherenical fight and I had him cast stoneskin and improved invisibilty a few times afterwards since it's cheaper than buying healing spells. For the battle squares she didn't need his buffs however. She also bought a bull's strength buff from Malavon for speeding up killing the driders.
The only magical ammo used were the returning bullet and arrow, other ammo was horded but never spent.
I don't remember ever using a ring of invisibility in this game.

 

What level of difficulty did you set the game at? I'm assuming it wasn't Insane...
Oh, and did you take on the Iron Golems? I don't think they would have been much of a challenge, what with your fast attacks and extra speed.

 

The game was at normal difficulty.

The iron golems were annoying but not hard to handle.
Versus the first golems she used the throwing axe won at the battlesquares, later she used the 2-handed throwing axe. Its longer range is more comfortable for hit and run, 15 damage reduction isn't much for a 30 strength barbarian and the extra slashing damage didn't get reduced.
I didn't try a 1:1 melee battle with an iron golem since I wanted to keep the in game time and healing costs low but I don't think they're harder to kill than the guardian.

 

I thought it possible in theory, but hadn't expected it would take less effort in practice, based on your comments. Great job, and the experience seemed enjoyable at least.

edit
I think in soloing a rogue you'd generally have an easier time than fighters because of UMD, but some "special" battles might be more difficult (hellish?) as subpar fighting skills and UMD would not be as effective as plain might/magic. Never tested though, the closest thing to a thief I soloed was a bard (who uses very different tactics).

 

HoF solo ranger

After the fun barbarian solo I decided to play a HoF solo. Since HoF without summoning is painful and being able to summon greater boneguards or shamblers takes away the challenge I decided to play a ranger.

The racial choice was deep gnome since invisibility and mirror image are needed. Alignment was evil because of immunity to blasphemy spells. The stats were 16-16-18-3-20-1 and only wis was raised at level up. Spending 4 of the stat raises for strength might have been better, in chapter 5-6 she'd only be missing a level 3+4 spell with 30 instead of 34 wis.

28 of the 33 skillpoints were spent for spellcraft to take the powerful "scion of storms" feat, I took the other 3 elemental feats too.
2 skillpoints and one potion of master thievery were used for pickpocketing Ned's lucky knucky, 2 to enable lockpick and only 1 for a trained skill, concentration.
All doors and chests could be bashed except 5, the 3 chests in Dragon's Eye 1 southwest were opened by the rescued prisoners (just kill them to get it), for the treasure chest in the time loop 2 potions of master thievery were needed, also for the treasure in the NW corner of the fields of slaughter.

The first favored enemy was half-orc. +4 to hit and damage helped getting from level 16 to 30 in chapter 1, in later chapters there were several situations where the +7 bonus at level 30 helped, Duergar Stronghold, Fields of Slaughter and several fights in the Severed Hand.
The second favored enemy was trolls to make them less annoying, especially the troll horde attacking before Fellwood was a pain even with the +6 bonus.
The +5 bonus helped on several occassions, especially when getting attacked immediately after arriving in Kuldahar.
The remaining choices were +4 versus Yuan-ti, +3 versus Lizardmen (Should have taken driders first), +2 versus driders and +1 versus Harpies.

To get from starting level 1 to 30 fast and without too much work I stopped levelling at level 6, desquatted from 6 to 16 (needed some power for the palisade battle and desquatting to a higher level slows down reaching level 30) and from 16 to 30 which was reached below the goblin warrens. Taking the last 14 levels together allowed taking more than 2 elemental feats.

For rangers (and most likely for paladins too) the casting level is only the half class level rounded down. I was surprised getting a little fire beetle instead of a rhinoceros beetle with the giant vermin spell at the palisade.
So no 16d8 damage with static charge, call lightning and summons last only half as long as exspected.
The level 6 ranger spell static charge was treated as level 5 spell in terms of DC, DC was only 19 with GSF transmutation.

In Targos are many great items to buy, but since you don't earn enough money in chapter 1 and HoF mode doesn't improve the weapons outside Targos that much so my character had to use considerably worse weapons until chapter 5.


Noteworthy battles:

Before starting the palisade battle I filled the whole inventory and a container there with bullets, they were needed.
At level 16 there wasn't enough spellpower to handle all the invading goblins, most had to be done via shoot and run using the sling +1 (no money to buy the sling +5). The summoned monsters concentrated on the worgs and other fast animals in the first attacking group, the goblins which followed later were slow and the shield found at the palisade protected from archer missiles.

Like in normal mode it was necessary to lure away and kill Sherenical's allies and resting before fighting her. The usually deadly call lightning/static charge combo didn't work since she was immune to electrical damage and standard summons didn't hurt her either. So 2 fire elementals were summoned and all available flamestrikes and sunscorches were cast. Melee attempts were soon aborted, my ranger had to flee when Sherenical switched towards her, so for taking the last HP monsters were summoned to keep her busy while throwing the axe+3 to hurt with criticals.

Outside the mindflayer citadel where you find Oswald again I thought I was screwed. Even if you enter the area invisible the you get immediately attacked by 4 earth elementals supported by mages and harpies are going to attack as soon as they see you. I thought I could simply retreat but got shocked realizing that the doors get sealed upon entering.
My ranger entered the area invisible and walked around followed by the elementals and mages who lost track of her and kept standing at different places on the way.
Afterwards she retreated into the northern corner so only 2 or 3 enemies could see her when she started attacking (sling & disruption weapon) without moving so other monters don't attack. Once they were dead she could prepare with summons and casting lightnings and static charges to prepare for the remaining monsters.

Another fight which looked impossible at the first sight is preventing Izbelah from casting her spell which starts the time loop in Dragon's Eye. You don't have time to prepare, she has a lot of hitpoints and concentration skill and is protected by monsters which won't leave you alive long enough to kill her.
But you can shoot her with a sling (throwing axe has to little reach) from the island with the chest in the NW. The lava Mephits there do hardly any damage, especially if you have the spirit of flame feat.
Since even 5 attacks per round were not enough to keep her from casting I tried the insect plague spell. Worked like a charm.

For fighting the guardian the tactic was obvious. Buff and summon, cast as many static charges and call lightnings as possible. Then keep on throwing the dagger +5 and running away until the end.

Before starting the game I suspected the battle at the roof of the Severed Hand to be hardest one, maybe even impossible. It looked disappointingly easy when I found out that you can leave, rest outside and reenter the area. But when leaving the roof for resting after killing a few enemies I surprisingly got brought to the twins without a chance to rest first. So I had to think again.
I suspected that Nakalora's death leads to the endgame, so tried to keep her alive while killing others.
You don't have to time to summon on the roof, so the tactic was the following:
Enter the outside area below the roof, cast protection spells, static charges and call lightning. Go up the roof and fight as long as you can survive (which is only a few seconds), then turn invisible and let the lightnings do the work.
The problem was that Nakalora can see invisible characters so my ranger had to walk around wisely for the lightnings to strike at the proper targets while avoiding to get hit in melee and surviving her damaging fire breaths. It helped that Nakalora got stuck after some time.
When the first attempt was over, the 2 mages and the priest were dead and my character retreated for resting, knowing that the still living enemies would regenerate too. Once she returned invisible 8 hours later Nakalora couldn't see her any more which made the rest of this battle quite easy. After victory my character could rest and prepare for the final battle.

An effective tactic for the final battle is using "protection from magic" scrolls on the Summoner and Madae, but fighting the final battle without using scrolls or potions wasn't too hard either.
After the usual buffing on the roof (which included 3 static charges) she went down hidden in shadows so most enemies targeted the monks first.
First the summoner was attacked in melee with cowards flight (grataxe +5 which either stuns or slows the target for a short time without a save allowed) to keep him from summoning. It took some time killing him, but a panicking character doesn't cast spells.
When other enemies attacked I turned towards them until they panicked too. It's possible to cast summoning spells uninterrupted if you run aside, kill or panic the enemies targeting you.
The twins were fought last, their allies had to get removed first.
I chose to attack Madae instead of Isair. She has more HP and can heal herself, but the phantom staff (long range quarterstaff +5) hits her without damage reduction while Isair is resistant to all long range weapons.
The second half of the fight is simple shoot and run, hit the enemies without allowing them to hit back.

 

Seriously. A swirf ranger? HoF? And you make it sound so easy...

 

Kudos, that's impressive.

 

Congrats, but...

You only needed about 14 points in spellcraft.

Were you tempted to take a monk level for the AC boost and evasion?

 

28 skillpoints were needed to get spellcraft up to 10 since spellcraft is a cross-class skill for rangers.

I never thought about taking a monk level, this would have crippled my character. She would have lost 1 AB, another 1 to hit and damage versus 7 favored enemy types, a level 4 and 5 spell and her casting level would have dropped from 15 to 14, less damage with static charge and flamestrike, shorter lasting lightnings and summons, boring beetles instead of rhino beetles ...
Even with a monk level she would have used armor and a shield which are more useful than evasion (damage from spells is no problem) and useless +12 AC you get for two empty equipment slots.

 

my half-orc barbarian finished HoF mode too

After she had proven her strength at fighting the normal mode monsters successfully I imported half-orc barbarian into HoF mode.
Her not being bad aligned didn't make the game easier. She couldn't use the spiritcaller axe and the HoF version to summon a shadow per day and was vulnerable to unholy blight and blasphemy. But as good character she could buy and use the Lathander's gift mace in Kuldahar, one heal per day can be as useful as double hit points.

In normal mode she had gained 12 hitpoints and 5 acid resistance for defeating the guardian, +1 piercing and slashing resistance from the potion Oswald left and 3 SR. But even more helpful than the permanent stat boosts were the items she took with her, especially the 2 Tymora's loop rings (10 times as good as any ring found in HoF mode), the greataxe of cleaving +5 (no melee weapon found in HoF mode did that much damage) and the returning flame bullet +1. The other stuff and a few extra GP to spend for buying HoF weapons in Targos don't hurt either. Bonus merchants, scrolls or potions (except those with permanent boosts and a spirit essence outside combat) were not used. According to my experience beating HoF mode with a newly created barbarian will be harder and slower, especially at the beginning, but it should be possible.
With the +8 luck from the rings and young Ned's knucky she had a 50 percent chance to do far more than 100 damage with a critical in melee using the greataxe.
The defensive luck benefits aren't bad either. It's nice when 7 resistance makes you nearly immune while the enemies standing beside you with 10 or more resistance take serious damage from fire breath or spells.

It took about 100 days in-game time to finish, it could have been less but this wasn't important to me.

At Lord Ulbrec's house in Targos she found a book which summons an air elemental 3 times per day, everyone can use it except pure class barbarians.
So I played the only class which can't summon powerful monsters in HoF. The book would have helped my solo ranger considerably but I overlooked it.

With high strength and powerful equipment HoF Sherenical was easier than in the previous games. Sling+5 and returning flame bullet could overcome the 20 damage reduction even with a non-critical from afar.

Her battle before leaving with Oswald for Kuldahar was similar to the ranger's. She used Caballus' whispering staff before entering the area and ran around invisible until the elementals and mages stopped following her. From the northern corner she attacked and killed the earth elemental and mage in sight without moving. Afterwards she defeated the second elemental without attracting other monsters. Seriously wounded, too proud to drink healing potions and unable to open the doors for retreat or save the game she put on regeneration gear and waited until the hitpoints were regenerated (regeneration speed was 59 hitpoints every 60 rounds, black goat girdle 1/3, periapt of wound closure 1/4, cornugon hide, Gohoin's charm, 2 rings of regeneration 1/10 each). It was a waste of time , the remaining enemies weren't able to hurt her.
By hiding in shadows she made sure to attract only one harpy a time, 5 attacks per round with her sling for more than 35 damage average didn't let them get close. After killing the harpies she had enough space for defeating the remaining elementals with shoot and run.

The guardian battle was easier than with the ranger in spite of having far less options. It was simple hit and run with the 2-handed throwing axe. The stoneskin from the imbued robe of absorbtion works, so his weapons must be considered +3 or +4. You can't use the heal spell from Lathander's gift after defeating the Guardian in time, but if you use the healing when the guardian is almost death and finish him afterwards you can avoid forced rest.
Even defeating the HoF guardian in melee isn't too hard if you wait until you get the chain of Drak'kas fury.

I was a little worried about Izbelah since my barbarian couldn't use insect plague to keep her from casting and there were 4 monsters protecting her. But my barbarian was so powerful that the ranged tactic was totally unnecessary, she fought a frost giant, 2 spiders, a shadow and Izbelah in melee, they died fast and did hardly any damage.

The fields of slaughter were quite hard. The "kill a monster, leave the map, regenerate, return" tactic should have worked, but I wanted clean the map without leaving to avoid travel hours.
The first group she approached hidden. After a few shots she retreated to the south and hid in shadows. Most monsters followed her and stayed in the south, only the priest and the half-goblin remained standing alone. She sneaked towards the priest and attacked with the 2-handed throwing axe with a little break for using goblin slayer. After the blasphemy threat was gone she continued with shoot and run on narrow space, staying as far south as possible hoping that no fallen bladesinger will move south, fighting those two groups together is nearly impossible.

Fallen bladesingers aren't the optimal victims for shoot and run since they move very fast and hit hard, but she was strong enough to survive.

Without diplomatic skills she couldn't avoid fighting the orcs. Standard shoot and run didn't work, very many enemies and a shaman who can finish the battle by casting blasphemy. He had lots of hitpoints, was immune to criticals and never got interrupted at spellcasting. After luring the orcs out she retreated to the narrow entrance passage where only one orc could attack her at once. So she survived the 3 blasphemy spells, shot the bosses and a few common orc dread warriors until she had to leave because of low hitpoints. The remaining orcs ware defeated with shoot, run and hide.

Afterwards she sneaked past the undead and after meeting the lich she lured the elves north, used the ring of invisibility, took the purifying potion and ran to place it at its destination. The rest was easy.

The Severed Hand battles weren't too hard since she could always to retreat into another area. The final battle was successful on the first attempt. During the first half she used coward's flight. First the summoner and enemies near him were attacked. My barbarian was hit with a blasphemy spell, but she didn't take much damage. The twins' helpers didn't last long and when Isair who had cast antimagic shell on himself arrived he didn't stay long either. When the twins retreated 3 monks were still alive. My barbarian didn't even bother healing before starting the second part of the fight with shoot and run tactics using the 2-handed throwing axe and a phantom staff +5.

Afterwards I reloaded a previous save and returned to Kuldahar to defeat the lost followers. It wasn't as hard as expected, just simple hit and run with a phantom staff +5.

 

I'm impressed Kmonster.

Man, that must have been a really bad moment.

 

Another impressive achievement. Kudos

About the luck effect: I thought there was no defensive dice-rolling. Isn't the attacker the only one who rolls? Attackers roll to beat AC, DR, SR, elemental resistance, saving throws, you name it. The defensive value is set in the game's mechanics, despite it being called a 'saving throw'. For this reason, I don't believe there are many defensive bonuses to having high luck, except better defensive spells... It's counterintuitive, I know. But I believe the game makers illustrate this flaw by giving the Tymora's Melody song a +3 to saving throws, and some skill boosts.

As for the tactics you mention, they involve deliberately breaking the group AI, so they no longer swarm towards you. Then you stand around for hours of in-game time, as the opponents obligingly wait to be gunned down by you, one by one. I'll ignore the fact that this is completely unrealistic.. Of course, a solo warrior in HoF will need use some kind of cheesy exploit to manage the larger battles, but I think that your method must have been tedious and unrewarding.

That came off sounding very negative, sorry about that.

 

Soloing a paladin shouldnt be difficult. Look at his spells: immunity to fear, bless/prayer/reci, protEvil, bulls/champ, duhm, death ward, holy power, spell resistance, divine shell. Basically thats a full cleric with fighter HP, fighter AB w/o Heals, which shouldnt be a problem soloing, with potions and all.