Staff of the magi

Remove all ads!

I just want to establish a few points about staff of the magi.
First, with ToB, staff of the magi becomes staff of the magi killer. The staff has unlimited invisibility, unremovable spell trap, +5 to hit and each hit dispels magic. Does any mage/lich have a chance?
Second, your mage should never use this staff. By mage I mean your main spell caster, like a soccerer or Edwin. The staff gives you +4 AC +4 save throw.(two actual and two from protection from evil) Why you want a mage to use it rather than a frontline guy? The staff is completely useless in a mage's hand. A mage doesn't need Ac, a mage doesn't need saving throw, because 99% of the time, those things are throw at your fighter, not your mage. Darts are even a better weapon than staff of the magi. Other bonuses like +5, spell trap, dispel magic, lightening bolts etc all wasted.
Third, Staff of the magi also has a very cheesy tactic. Because it has infinite invisibility. All you have to do is attack then click to re-equip the staff, (F2 or F3) and you are invisible again. Do it over and over, you can kill all golems, giants, trolls, mind flayers, etc etc, very quickly and without take a single hit yourself. Even if there are people can cast true sight, hit them first. once they start casting, hit them, then invisible, hit them again untill they are dead.
Forth, staff of the magi is a very good thief weapon. A pure thief will do, let alone kits. He can use all the tactics above and if you are a fighter/thief, put 5 points in staff, you got yourself a character. He is still not a tank, but very powerful indeed. If you want more damage, just switch to staff of the ram or any other backstab weapon. It also has other bonuses, like save a lot of thief skill points. you can have 0 hide in shadows and 0 move silently.
All in all, staff of the magi should not be regarded as a mage's weapon in any case, it is a *melee* weapon, it is a thief's weapon. Your fighter/mage, fighter/thief should definitely consider use it all the way. Where your soccerer etc doesn't need it at all. It only has one problem which is it only gives +1 to hit. But you won't notice it. Like if you use boots of speed or you only attack mages.
I have enjoyed use it most of the time as a solo thief, quite easy to finish the game indeed.

[ May 11, 2003, 08:25: Message edited by: 14 ]

 

The Staff of the Magi hits like a +5 weapon but only gives a +1 bonus to THAC0.
(In your post you write something about +1, but it's not clear what you mean.)

1. The SotM is the same in SoA and ToB, isn't it?

2. In ToB a mage should have enough spells not be engaging in melee or missile combat. Thus recommending darts is a bit pointless at this stage.

I don't consider SotM to be an offensive weapon. Bonus to saves (and AC) is important for your main spellcaster because that is typically your most powerful character and you don't want bad things to happen to him.

Yes, you lose the "Dispel Magic when it strikes" ability by not engaging in melee with it - that is a good point. The Spell Trap and the Fireball-Lightning is not "wasted" though. I have no idea why you say that.

The most important argument against giving the SotM to someone besides your main spellcaster is that there are a large variety of extremely powerful weapons which can be more useful for your meleeing characters.

3. Well known cheese. Use it as little as possible for a better gaming experience.

4. Yep, SotM is a good thief weapon in ToB, but so is the Holy Avenger.

Note: You misspell "sorcerer". Live and learn.

 

Now think of a solo mage, wild mage or sorcerer. They need as much combat buffs as they can get, let alone spell defenses. And then think about what you said about mages not needing saves or AC. EVERY character needs those. Ever seen a finger of death heading toward your mage, usually the ONLY one that can get rid of those blasted combat protections that opposing mage has on? Or Sarevok heading straight for that same mage ready to disembowel at will and the poor guy has an AC of 10, you might want to reconsider where you put that staff... Think about it.

Although I disagree with the statements you made that I have replied to above, I do agree that the staff would be much more useful in the hands of a fighter or other front-liner. You'll see alot more fingers of death headed toward those guys, I guess

 

Thanks for the reply guys.
I usually play as a sorcerer and I just found that sotm is comletely useless in my hand. First, I very rarely got attacked in melee as you should not be in that situation. And when that happens, it's stoneskin, mirror image etc to save me, not +2 or +4 AC. Second, I very rarely got attacked by spells. Most enermy spells are cast on fighters, and the one you want to save are stun, charm, horrid wilting etc, they very rarely reach the mage. It's true finger of death occasionally is cast, but there are many ways to boost save vs death, +2 save is wasted most of the time. Same thing goes for protection from evil and spell trap, etc. And surely you don't need your mage to cast that lightening/fire ball.
I conclude that the only advantage is you *feel* better knowing you got +2 Ac +2 Save, and you look cooler, but in fact you don't use it at all.
And sometimes when I fight some yu-ti or goblins, I don't bother to waste any spells. But with a sotm stuck in my hand, I'm doing nothing but stand there. And most of the time, you do a *group* attack, what happens is your mage is attacking with the staff. You don't realise it until your mage is nearly dead in the frontline, pretty annoying, so I would just use darts.
And last game I played as a thief. And sotm works wonders in a thief's hand. I'm going up to the frontline. +5 to hit, spell trap, dispel magic, AC, save, protection from evil, all makes sense now. And when things are rough, I can just be invisible and run. I used to try to backstab liches, now I just wack them with the staff. I was thinking, why the game allow a thief to put one proficiency in staff? Now I know, it's purely for staff of the magi.
I really think AC, save are not needed for a mage. I use to pick up Imoen and gave her no equipment at all, she's still pretty healthy and useful.
Anyways I'm not saying sotm is the ultimate melee weapon or mage killer, but it should be considered as a special melee weapon, not a spellcaster's weapon. Or, if you are a mage, you don't need to fight for this weapon, because it's useless.
Regarding holy avenger, a pure thief can't use it properly(but I suppose no one is a pure thief any more) It's has a lot less special abilities. Another problem is, it *sets* you MR to 50%. So if you are wearing human flesh, you have to re-equip it to get 70%, quite annoying, and can't do it in battle.
Surely there are a lot of good melee weapons such as holy avenger,(actually, I could argue there are not many better ones for a thief) I'm not arguing stom is the ultimate weapon or anything, I just want you to consider it *is* a good melee weapon, and use it. It's pretty good.

 

there are a few chars that can use the staff of the magi:
kensai\mage
fighter\mage

because they can get GM (grandmasery) in quarterstaffs thus making the staff uselful....(i had a kensai\mage with thac0 -6 with GM in quarterstaffs).

 

When you talk about your thief using SotM, I'm presuming you are either a thief/mage or you have acquired the Use Any Item (UAI) skill, since that is never explained.

I totally disagree with your statement that SotM is a useless item in the hands of a mage. Here are the points:

- Spell trap has saved my mages numerous times by protecting it from spells cast at them while also helping to restore their previously cast spells.

- The invisibility ability of the staff helps out my mages when they need to reposition themselves for a more advantageous attack (such as to strike an enemy to dispel their magic protections) or to get away long enough to drink potions so they can continue fighting. Also invisible does not mean silent so your statement that your thief could have 0 in move silent and remain undetectable is wrong.

- Your claim that the fireball-lightning bolt is useless and wasted only means that you've never used them, or used them properly. These are cast almost immediately and nearly as fast, if not faster, than a mage casting Improved Alacrity beforehand and firing off the same spells.

- There are very few +5 weapons in the game. With the exception of Carsomyr, any other +5 weapon needs to be forged by Cespanar and if you do not have/get all the components, then no +5 weapon (Short Sword of Mask, Spectral Brand, etc). Granted your mage isn't that skilled in melee, but there comes the time when they must get into the battle as heavily as your fighters. The +5 assists them due to their lack of weapons training and experience.

- the AC and saving throw bonuses are always useful. Sooner or later your stoneskins are going to be depleted and your magic protections will wear off. Worse yet, enemy spellcasters (and when was the last time you came across a single spellcaster) love to throw breach-type spells (breach, pierce magic, pierce shield, spell thrust, etc). A little bonus is better than no bonus at all.

I can think of a host of weapons that are better suited to a thief, or to any character for that matter. Ever wonder why you don't normally see thieves use staffs? Thieves are supposed to be sneaky and sly; attacking from positions of being unseen and at a safe distance. If they aren't barraging you with arrows and bolts, they are attacking with short swords. Mages aren't supposed to engage in melee as the norm but there comes a time when they must take up arms and be able to defend themselves. Staves are the only melee weapon available to a mage; all their other weapon choices are ranged (slings, darts, daggers). That is why SotM is so important.

If, indeed, you consider the weapon that useless, particularly for your solo sorcerer, then I would suggest bumping up the difficulty of your game or installing some of the mods that give you new insight into the game. Admittedly, knowing where everything is and what enemies are where gives you the advantage. Changing things up a bit will make you and your solo sorcerer better appreciate the abilities SotM provides.

 

A mage should still have a melee weapon handy. Sometimes you get 'bushed and baddies walk right up to you. If you're using darts the enemy gets +4 to his attack rolls in melee combat. I still wouldn't use Staff of the Magi to attack, but it's like a shield for mages so they can get their spells off while under melee attack.

 

First I want to make it clear that I'm not saying stom is a power gaming weapon. I just want people to *consider* use it. It's just an option.
A few points I want to respond.
1. Can you name what spell is your mage afraid of? i.e, When do you need a spell trap? I can think of none. The only one is finger of death. Which is primarily cast on fighters but occasionally leak to mages. However, I don't think it's worth spell trap to stop that. Sure things like piece magic is used, but do you really cast spell turning and mantle etc on yourself? I never do and I think it doesn't worth it.
2. Your mage should never fight melee. Especially not with sotm. With it you probably have 15 or 16 thac0, you can hit nobody. If an enermy attacks you, cast stoneskin or mirror image, or drink a potion of speed and run to a safer place.
3. Invisibility is only useful when the enermy first sighted, so they ignore your mage. But it's very rare you got encircled or surrounded. Enermies only attack your front guys, which shouldn't be your mage. Meaning invisibility is not nessecery at all. And once you cast a spell, you are not invisible any more.
4. Why thief has a proficiency in staff? My guess is to use sotm.
5. Every one can cast that lightening/fireball. As is known, it only takes one second. So you can cast it then swich weapons. Why use your mage to cast it when he can cast an additional lightening?
6. I think many of the opposition is exclusively based on solo experience. Although many people are talking about soloing, a solo BG game is only 1% of the total games. I agree if you are a solo sorcerer, you should have sotm. Simply because sling, dagger, and darts are too poor. If you have a party, then you don't need it.
I want to add that the default AI is that when you got attacked, your guy will automaticly attack the attacker. So if you mage got hit by an arrow, he will automaticly attack the arrow shooter, meaning he's going after him with his staff which is not good. And a mage has a lot of time idle between spell castings, with a staff in hand he's doing nothing but stand there.

[ May 14, 2003, 07:07: Message edited by: 14 ]

 

StoM is not too easy to get. The figth at the Bridge District is quite "intresting". I used this staff with my solo F/M/T, but when i dare to go there i had to be strong enough to kill the vampire, the lich, the beholder and the powerful mage.

I kill the liches with traps usually, but the others are difficult. Cloud kill, and Death Fog or something like that works, but still a hard battle.

So when i get the overpowered staff, i am overpowered already. There are not too much such a difficult battle in the game.

StoM is a very good weapon against Kangaxx...

 

1. Spell trap serves two purposes. First, it protects the mage from nearly all spells cast at them. It's not a question of being afraid of a spell; it's a question of wanting protection from ill spell effects. Mages have pitiful hitpoints so any protection afforded them should be used. The second purpose of spell trap is to restore spells previously cast by the mage. This allows the mage to continue with the battle without too much worry about not having appropriate spells.

2. In a perfect scenario, a mage would never get involved in melee. Since the perfect scenario doesn't exist, especially in a solo sorcerer adventure, for example, the mage is going to get his/her hands dirty in combat. Staves are the only melee weapon available to mages; all other weapons are ranged and while that is the probably the best position for a mage to take, the reality is sooner or later you are going to have to bring up a staff and protect yourself. While there is no shame in running away from a battle, there is little gained from it. There are also the times when running is not an option.

3. I must have the worst luck regarding battles then because my spell casters are always attacked first -- and usually by other spell casters (go figure). Invisibility is never useless. It can be a problem if your party is small (1 or 2 characters), but if you run a larger party it's very easy for a mage to get in an attack with the staff, activate the invisibility, and move to another location for another attack, much like a thief would drink a potion of invisibility before positioning themselves for a backstab. There are also spells that require the enemy be touched for it to activate so positioning becomes even more important.

4. Thieves have quarterstaff as a proficiency option much the same reason that anyone else has it -- it is a basic, easy to acquire or create item. Thieves also have, amongst other things, short sword, long sword, katana, and scimitar which are far better suited to the skills of a thief. Let me think about this for a minute... I'm a thief who's primary form of attack is to sneak up on people and stab them in the back. Let's see if I can do it with this 6' piece of oak. Not likely. I cannot think of any encounter with a thief that the item they dropped was a quarterstaff; it is normally swords and bows; occasionally a dagger.

5. If your front-line fighters are always attacked first, you are going to waste their time by fumbling with the staff to get off the fireball-lightning while they are slashing at you? Are you also going to risk targeting that ability at an enemy that is close by so you, and potentially your allies, can also take damage from your own attack? I'm not one to judge but that type fighting strategy will ensure a very short lifespan and few friends. This hardly needs further discussion.

6. No one should be playing with the default AI. If you're playing using the computer AI for your characters, that would explain why your mages are standing around doing nothing or running after enemies with their staff. Turn that off or at least pick one of the AI scripts that has your mages cast spells or use ranged weapons. If your mage has a lot of idle time between spells, then the mage isn't effective. If any of your characters have that much idle time during a battle, be they spell casters or not, then you should really consider if they are necessary to your party. Guess it's just me but if I'm with a group of people and we got jumped, I'd like to think that all of us would help each other out and not just stand around while the rest of the group is getting smacked around.

 

I think enough is said, I don't want this become an argument that who said the last word wins.
Anyway I think you are soloing. As I said, solo mage should use sotm no doubt.
If you play with a party, you'll realise sotm is not very useful. Spells won't hit your mage, nobody will attack your mage.(if your formation is right)
With a party you can't turn the AI off.(unless special cases) And with sotm you can't choose the missle AI.
firball/lightening aren't that important, as you said, if you are with a party, better not use it.

 

I agree with those who vote to the Staff of Magi as a real mage weapon, belonging to wizards.

I use the oppurtunity and tell my wizard regulation:
The 3 most important things to the best wizards (for noble mages and sorcerers; Wild Mages and
evil spellcasters do not behave due to the following points, the regulation is not for them!)

Baronius' Regulation for Wizards
--------------------------------
1) Never be idle! Use your time!
2) As the Candlekeep monks say:
"Wisdom is only possessed by the learned"
Study!
2) Be intelligent and wise in every situation (spellcasting in battle, talking, etc)
3) Be elegant in every situation, avoid any physical fighting that might endanger you.

Remark for point 2:
Although the intelligence seems the most important ability for wizards, but wisdom is very important too (though it has no direct effect except in few situations (f.e. while making a wish)). So the noble wizards are wise.

Remark for point 3:
But you do not have to avoid using your weapons if you are in good position (shields and protections, TimeStop). The pause between casting spells: use the time! Use weapons or items!

 

Solaufein (fighter/mage) is killer with SotM, especially against the oppositions primary mage. Invisible. Dispels all the opponents protections. Goes invisible again. Casts his own spells.

Lather.Rinse.Repeat. Works beautifully.

My one regret is that it can't be used as a thief's backstabbing weapon. Imoen can use any other staff to backstab, but not that one. -sigh-
Invisible. Backstab. Invisible. Backstab... it could have been beautiful.

 

You can only backstab with thieve's weapons. SotM is a mage weapon.

Extra AC does help your mage. Stoneskin becomes weaker every time the enemy hits you. If they have a harder time hitting you, you'll be protected longer.

I can think of other spells that a mage would fear besides finger of death. I remember a game where, during the Irenicus fight, several level nine spells (including imprisonment) were cast directly onto my mage. Needless to say, I managed to get off four timestops as a level 18 mage (not wild mage). If that isn't cool, I don't know what is.

Nope. Many of us here don't solo.

My spellcasters also are usually the first targetted in any battle. They're also the ones that I would rather not lose in a fight with a powerful mage. Is that worth protecting? Yep.

14, what difficultly level did you use to formulate these arguments? I think you must not have been playing a difficult game if you don't want the Staff of the Magi on your mages.

 

AC is not important? Sorry, I'd just prefer to *not* have to cast stoneskin and mirror image every five seconds.

Saves are not important? If you LIKE running around like an idiot in every dragon encounter, that's your business, isn't it?

Those who know what roleplaying is (can't blame you on THESE forums) wouldn't use the invisibility cheaply.

Spell Trap is awesome, and just because this staff is powerful you say it is cheesy? Why don't you attack Celestial Fury and Carsomyr then?

Protection from evil; I don't like wasting a round every time I want to summon a demon.

You assume the "fighter" will be targeted by all offense, but I play solos. 50% of the gaming world doesn't apply to your stereotype.

Every +5 weapon has awesome abilities. Don't pick and choose which ones are cheesy, while others are still normal.

Mages look good with staves; this is how it is. They shouldn't EVER have to use ANY weapons. They shouldn't run out of spells. It's for the abilities and appearance that the staff is used.

Is it the "Staff of the Thieves?" No. Is it only usable by thieves, rather than mages? No. Your points are mute and void.

YET ANOTHER ARGUMENT DISABLED BY THE AWESOME ABAZIGAL!!!